Today our guest is Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chödrön who spent decades living and practicing and receiving teachings from two uncompromising yogic masters of our time. She speaks about devotion, the hidden oral lineages of Tantric practice, the yogas of tsalung and tummo, and what it means to stop playing games with yourself.
This episode originally aired February of 2022 and was released July of 2026 with improved audio quality which is what is shared in this episode page. The original title was: The Oral Instruction Lineage, Ngagpas & Himalayan Yogas of Tsa lung and Tummo
00:00:00 — Introduction
00:02:07 — First encounter with dharma
00:09:51 — Karmic seeds ripening
00:11:38 — Lama Dawa and what is ngakpa?
00:17:53 — Responsibility for the elements
00:19:00 — Examples of elemental mastery
00:21:27 — Lama Dawa’s qualities as a teacher
00:22:45 — Why Lamas avoid spirit talk
00:26:58 — Life after Lama Dawa’s passing
00:30:50 — Meeting Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche
00:39:24 — Desire for an uncompromising teacher
00:39:33 — Renunciation sparked by Yeshe Tsogyal
00:42:18 — Rigdzin Sökdrup lineage
00:42:45 — Years of retreat in Nepal
00:51:34 — On tsalung
01:01:39 — Tending the body: Lu Jong, neyjang
01:04:24 — Subtle energetic systems explained
01:10:15 — Bliss and emptiness connection
01:13:40 — Intimate retreat with a teacher
01:14:02 — Uniqueness of guru-disciple model
01:18:31 — Finding teachers today
01:18:39 — Sacrifices required
For more episodes with Khandro Kunzang:
Devotion, Maturation & the Guru
https://oliviaclementine.com/khandro-kunzang-dechen-chodron-devotion-maturation-the-guru/
Vajrakilaya, Guru Rinpoche Prophecies & the Mandala Principle
Elemental Spirits, Vajra Armor & Dharma Marriage
https://oliviaclementine.com/khandro-kunzang-elemental-spirits-vajra-armor-dharma-marriage/
Cultivating Siddhis, Tukdam, Lineage Protection & Consortship
Further Links:
Connect with Khandro Kunzang
Learn About & Support the P’hurba Peace Mandala Project
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Rough transcript, please excuse all errors
Introduction [00:00:00] Khandro Kunzang: These kind of teachers that don’t live on your agenda. You cannot manipulate them. You cannot, you cannot seduce them. You cannot, you know, wheel and deal with them, these kind of teachers. Very solid in who they are. And one of the reasons why I ha- I had so much devotion to him, and also Lama Dawa, is because they had the capacity to be critical of their own culture, actually You know, they weren’t even playing the Tibetan game.
You know, every culture we have our game that we play to get ahead and, you know, to become well-known or to have a certain position in society, and they didn’t care less about this and always avoided this. You know, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche had many opportunities to have an important position, and he always turned away from it and chose the life of, of a, you know, a yogi that, you know, in his early days wandered from place to place.
In the later days he lived in our house. The last nine years of his life he lived in our house and, um, till he passed away and we cremated his body on the roof of our house.
My name is Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. Today our guest is Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chödrön. Khandro Kunzang spent decades living and practicing alongside two uncompromising yogic masters of our time, receiving teachings in secret in the mountains and in the middle of the night
She speaks candidly about devotion, the hidden oral lineages of Tantric practice, the yogas of tsalung and tummo, and what it means to stop playing games with yourself
[00:01:55] Olivia: Such a joy to be here with you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Thank you. When did you first decide to delve into the dharma, and why did you choose to become a nun?
[00:02:07] Khandro Kunzang: Hmm. You know, I think for those of us who are born in the West and have obvious karmic propensities, it’s, it’s sort of like we get triggered by something we see or something we read, and it sparks something in the mind and sets us on our journey.
You know? So you know, so for me it was like that. You know, encountering different things, like the first time I saw a Buddha statue when I was 14 years old, and it just woke up something in my mind. I didn’t know what Buddha was, and then I just announced to my friends, “I’m a Buddhist.” You know? I didn’t know what it was, but there was something that spoke very deeply to me, that w- there was a recognition there.
And, um, and I had had a series of experiences as a child, dreams and, uh, you could say visions that couldn’t be answered. And so I naturally was a seeker, you know, always seeking and exploring and… You know, I was born in 1960, so I grew up in sort of the heyday of when Eastern thought was coming to America.
So there was all kinds of things that were going on and exploring. And there, there used to be an organization called the Liberal Religious Youth that was run by the Unitarian Church, and they would hold these weekend conferences. This is in the ’70s. And I used to go to them, and I had some really profound experiences there that I didn’t really understand and wanted to know more.
So you know, I’ve always had this propensity to seek truth, to want to understand, and, uh, innately knowing that there’s more to this reality than meets the eye, you know? And so, so I… You know, that was a propensity I always had. But it was things like reading, um, the, the autobiography of Yeshe Tsogyal written, translated by Keith Dowman absolutely blew my mind, and that was the, one of the main triggers that woke me up to I need to follow this ’cause I, I know who this is.
You know, I felt like I was reading a story of somebody that I knew, even though I didn’t understand a lot of the terminology. And so Then I had friends who had been, you know, students of Namkhai Norbu, Traleg Kyabgon, they kind of sent me books to read and like this. So I started reading. And also where I grew up in, uh, the Hudson Valley of New York, you know, the Karmapa was coming to set up his center in Woodstock.
This is in the ’70s, and I knew about it. You know, and Chogyam Trungpa was setting up his place in Vermont, and they were starting to publish things. But I… You know, it didn’t speak to me. It’s interesting. I was exposed to this, but I found it to be kind of, I don’t know, intellectual and psychological, and it didn’t really speak to me because I was into nature spirits and going to Indian powwows and things like this.
So it took a little while for me to really warm up to becoming a Buddhist and taking those refuge vows. You know, I was in my early 30s when I finally kind of said, “Okay, you know, I’ve got to do this.” I was a little bit resistant because it just seemed very hierarchical and patriarchal, and it… You know, it’s interesting how we have these resistances, and that certainly was part of how I was raised by my mother, you know.
And sort of to have this kind of, “Eh” But, uh, you know, the karmic… When the karmic seeds ripen, they ripen in a really big way, so. So I finally, after I encountered this book, I, uh, went to a series of teachings by His Holiness Chatral Rinpoche, who was doing a tour in the United States, and just kind of jumped in.
You know how it is. Refuge, Bodhisattva vows, this empowerment, that empowerment. Like, I was so overwhelmed and, you know, my head was swimming, but I just kind of knew I have to do this, you know? And then it just… Then I just sort of said, “Okay, what’s next?” I jumped in. What’s next? And, um, at that time I was living in Vermont, in Burlington, Vermont.
My beautiful Burlington, Vermont. I loved it there so much. And, um, interestingly enough, after I took those refuge vows, my life started falling apart in unexplainable ways, and, you know, it began with my son, who was 12 years old at the time, deciding to go live with his dad, and my partner deciding to go back to his old girlfriend, and my landlord wanting to sell my house.
One by one, everything was leaving my life and, uh, I thought, “I guess it’s time for me to move”, you know? All the things that hold, I hold so dear, that is why I’m here. And also my career, you know, was all changing. So I then made the decision to move to Maryland, where the Drikung Kagyu Center was at that time.
And so I did that, and after that became a nun, was ordained by Khentrul Konchog Gyaltsen and, um, was some of the first students of His Eminence Gaden Rinpoche when he first came to the US. And, and, uh, then he… They bought land in Arizona and I was gonna move to Arizona, and then Lama Dawa came into my life.
And again, the karmic winds blow, as they say, and that set me off on a completely different path. And, you know, so here I am now, 20, 20 years later. And, uh, so you know, it’s, it’s like that. You know, little things happen here and there, and that sparks this, and then you go pursue and that sparks that and You know, for me, I’ve always been a person that doesn’t hesitate to just pack it up and move if I’m called to do that.
You know, for some people, you know, they, they’re not so, I don’t know, brave or yeah, I just like, “Okay, I have to do this.” I get very strong, uh, intuitive guidance, and that kind of compels me to make decisions even though they don’t make sense at the time. So but the decision to become a nun, that was, uh, sparked by meeting great inspirations like Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo.
I had spent a little bit of time with her when she came to the US. She was a tremendous source of inspiration. And, and of course, Garchan Rinpoche, meeting him, and so something in me woke up. And, you know, I was in my mid-30s at the time, and I just knew. It was a calling, you know. I think those kinds of things have to be like a calling.
There was never any pressure or any kind of, you know, just know something in me is like, “This is what I have to do”, and so yeah. Thank
[00:09:21] Olivia: you so much for sharing. So many parts of that resonate Yeah. And I also, yeah, really understand that feeling of everything falls apart and trusting the karmic seeds and, and following- Mm
that and, um, yeah, really appreciate you sharing the, the parts. I’m sure many people that will be listening can also resonate, especially ’cause we’re in a time where we like to kind of hold it all together when often the best thing is- Yeah … it falls all apart, so even if it’s difficult in the moment, so.
It is,
[00:09:51] Khandro Kunzang: and I’ve learned that that’s the karmic process. And again, we go back to the fact that many of us here, Westerners, had past lives. We wouldn’t be interested in the dharma if we didn’t. Like, I just assume anybody coming to teachings, there’s some past life history here. There’s something pushing people.
Like, why would we choose this? It’s… You know? And so something… There’s a background there pushing you, and so we have to assume that we have latent karmas and that those seeds are gonna ripen sometimes very abruptly when sometimes when they ripen. You know, be ready for earthquakes, you know. And then your whole life as you knew it…
At the time when I had this experience in Vermont, I had this beautiful life, and I then I realized this is a lie. I, I’m living a lie ’cause it’s all based on a false premise of me. I’m not who I think I am, and this whole life that I’ve created is based on this fundamental lie, and that’s a- actually for me it was terrifying.
It was not a beautiful, exalted experience. It was terrifying. I cried for days. I had to cancel all my clients, and it was, you’re left with then, “Well, who am I?” You know? And then off you go on your journey. But it’s not an easy experience, yeah. It can be life-changing, where things that were important to you can just fall away, or you see that this is not what I need to do.
And I, you know, I sometimes see sometimes couples that have been together and s- and one of them has this experience, and they realize, “I can’t do this anymore.” You know, it’s hard. It can be very, very hard. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:11:38] Olivia: So I, I’d love to hear about Lama Dawa, ’cause he was a ngagpa. And can you speak of the meaning of that, and also what the role of a ngagpa is in community?
[00:11:49] Khandro Kunzang: Yeah, sure. Nag- nagpa literally means a mantra dara. M- somebody who holds mantra. Mantra dara would be like the Sanskrit equivalent of the Tibetan word nag. Nag means mantra, speech mantra. So they’re mantra holders, you know, people who have perfected mantra and have… can perform all kinds of, you could say, magical activities.
So they’re generally seen as people with some kind of sid- siddhi, you know, some kind of accomplishment through their practice. But it is a tradition, and, and one of the things I forgot to mention, like in the Kaypashe, is that nagpa also includes women. Like, that word is kind of like the English word mankind, right?
But if you wanna speak specifically of a woman, you would say nagmo, right? If you’re talking about an individual person who’s a woman, nagmo. So nagpa, nagmo. But as a tradition, we say nagpa, right? So it includes both men and women. And so, and in, you know, in Tibetan culture, you could say in the cultures throughout the Himalayas, we say Tibetan, but there’s Bhutan and Sikkim and Ladakh and Nepal and, you know, Mongolia.
You know, there’s many of these kind of Buddhist-oriented cultures in the Himalayas that they served a very important role, especially in the remote village areas, in that they s- they performed all these services for the people. They needed to have healing abilities, so they were often well-versed in aspects of Tibetan medicine.
Um, they had to control the weather. They had to make sure the crops grew on time. They had to control epidemic diseases among their flocks, their herds of yak, sheep. They w- they, you know, if, if they had, um, an epidemic that wiped them out, the nagpa would be blamed for that, you know? Or if they had a hail that destroyed their crops, the nagpa would be blamed for that.
So they had to have these kinds of abilities to work with elemental forces, and they also performed divinations. They, um, they handled all the cremation, burial, and, uh, funeral services when a member of the village died. Um, they were often involved in legal matters, disputes, conflicts among the people in the villages, and so they had a pivotal role.
And, um, in the case of Lama Dawa’s father, who was a nagpa in the Dolpo region of Nepal, a very remote area that is now in Nepal, but it’s sort of Tibetan Nepal ethnic groups there, and They paid him in a tax. So once a year, every family had to come and make these offerings, like a tenth of their barley crop and a tenth of their butter and a tenth of fabrics.
And so they supported the Ngakpa. And in turn, the Ngakpa prof- this is how they served the community. They didn’t get paid, you know, in this… It wasn’t that kind of transaction. It was this kind of interdependent relationship that the people had. And, you know, the story of Lama Dawa’s father, he was a wandering chödpa at the time, and this was before Lama Dawa was born, but Lama Pema Dorje was alive.
Many people know Lama Pema Dorje. And they were wandering around, you know. Lama Dawa’s father and mother, they were chödpas. You know, she would give birth, they’d be on pilgrimage tour doing chöd. She’d go give birth and come back with her baby and just resume her chöd. I mean, just amazing. And they were in this area of Dolpo in this cave, this massive cave.
And the local people said, “Oh, you don’t wanna go in there. That’s haunted. You know, one time there was a whole, like, military or something was there, and they all died.” And they, they didn’t go in that cave ’cause they were scared of it. And so he thought, “This is a perfect place to practice.” So he, they set up camp there.
And, you know, after several months of them being there and doing their chöd, the local people started to notice that, gosh, you know, the weather’s so nice, and everything is going so well. Wow, you know, this Ngakpa really has energy. And so they actually requested him, “Please stay and be our lama.” ‘Cause they…
This very remote area, they were not… There was no monasteries nearby. And so he decided to stay, and they built this three-story monastery in the cave. Um, and then he stayed and became the resident lama, Ngakpa, of nine different villages. And Lama Dawa was born into that kind of setting up until he was nine years old.
He grew up in that with his father serving these villages and He sometimes would tell stories when his father was away. He was, you know, he was the man of the house, you know, this little eight-year-old boy . You know, and they would all come to him and ask him to do these kinds of things, ’cause it’s expected that the children, especially the sons, are gonna learn this.
‘Cause it is a tradition that’s passed down in the family line. And so my root teacher, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, who was also the quintessential ngakpa, he used to say that there were two ways one becomes a ngakpa. One is through family lineage, and that’s, that’s very important in Tibetan culture. And there are, there are prominent ngakpa family lineages.
And then the other is through your practice, right? So through going through the path of practice, and particularly when you’re going through the traditional path, through the Anu Yoga, the yoga practices, and you start to gain some abilities, then you ar- he would say you arrive on the stage of the ngakpa, and then you can perform these kinds of, um, practices.
So those of us born in the West, that’s how we become ngakpas.
[00:17:53] Olivia: That’s incredible. I mean, just thinking of the amount of pressure, to be- Mm … responsible for the elements, that’s just a whole- Yeah … another level of responsibility. And, and I mean, it’s also just so telling of this time, right? Like, we all are actually responsible in many ways for the elements as well, right?
Yeah. And
[00:18:10] Khandro Kunzang: They had such a close relationship with nature, you know, and they s- they still do. And I, I think some of that comes through in some of these practical teachings that I’ve been giving, these forces that are at play that we in the West, in our scientific materialistic culture, we don’t acknowledge that these forces exist.
And I have to say, that’s one of the great gifts that I, as a Westerner foreigner- Right … living amongst ngakpas, came to believe and see, you know, the reality of this. And even though I was always sensitive to it, when I was a child, I was, you know, totally into the nature spirits. And so I, maybe I have a propensity or a sensitivity to it anyway, but their understanding of these forces is very deep.
Mm-hmm. And they know how to work with it.
[00:19:00] Olivia: Do you have any examples of moments you’ve seen the elements worked with that were profound for you?
[00:19:07] Khandro Kunzang: Yeah. I mean, I can give some examples of my own teacher, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche. There were, you know, there are times… There was one time we were all together and we had to go somewhere, and the c- the butter lamp on his shrine was burning, and he, he didn’t want…
He was worried about leaving that while we went somewhere, and he, he did something for that fire to be perfectly still It stopped flickering. It was like frozen, and we left and we came back, and it was still where it was. The butter lamp hadn’t burned. Nothing happened. It was completely frozen, and then he released it, and it started burning again.
So like this, you know, direct control of the elemental energies. And, um, Lama Dawa tells a story when they were in Sikkim, and it rain, rain, rain, rain, rain, rain. It rained… There are times when it’s raining so much in Sikkim, and they were going somewhere, and Rinpoche made this special hat, and he put it on his head, and this group, uh, walking outside, and right over them it didn’t rain.
You know, it was, it was as though they had this, like, huge umbrella over all of them, but it was this special hat. And so it wasn’t raining on them as they were trekking up and down the mountains. And it was some special hat he made. He put it on his head, and then one of the guys who was with them, he really wanted that hat.
Like, “Rinpoche, I want your hat.” And Rinpoche was like, “Here, you can have it. It’s not actually the hat, you know. But you can have it if you think y- you’re gonna put this hat on, and it’s gonna do the same thing. I don’t… But here, you can have this hat.” Like, these kinds of, uh, stories and, and certainly with living with somebody like Lama Dawa who had direct communication with them.
He would have visions all the time and, um, you know, communicated with them regularly, and they’re, you know… Like, we have a number of them that live in our retreat land. We, we kind of know they’re around, and they make a little mischief for us and little terroŋ, as they say in Tibetan, or leprechauns we would say.
Maybe Sangpo. We have our resident, resident leprechaun, and he’s a little mischief maker.
[00:21:27] Olivia: Since you spent so much time as a companion and, really assisting Lama Dawa in teachings, what were some things about him that really stood out to you, both- You know, as his way of being a- and his way of teaching
[00:21:43] Khandro Kunzang: Mm-hmm.
Well, you know, to start with, when I first met him, right, I was a nun. And I met him in Oregon ’cause I was going to a Buddhist healing seminar that a Western lama was putting together, and they were all these, you know, Medicine Buddha practice. And he invited Lama Dawa to come to give Tache Khunsum empowerment, which is a deity within lineages that works with w- um, diseases from nagas specifically.
That’s how I met Lama Dawa, and I was so taken with his open and unabashed way of talking about these spirits because… And dharma protectors ’cause my… At that time, the teachers I had in this monastic tradition in the Drikung Kagyu, I could never get them to talk about these things, you know? I’d wanna talk about, like, these dharma protectors.
You know, I would be asking point, and they were always a little hedgy like they didn’t wanna talk about this, you know? Why was
[00:22:45] Olivia: that? What was the resistance Well,
[00:22:46] Khandro Kunzang: I later found out it’s because Tibetans believe if you name them, you invoke them, you know, and that, and actually, in the monastic tradition, they…
It’s the ngakpas that deal with this, and it’s the monasteries that give the ngakpas the jobs to work with that. Mm. You know, they’re just different traditions, and their, their realm that they work in is different, you know? And I think part of it was that, and I think part of it was just, mm, I think there’s a hesitancy on lamas to discuss this with Westerners ’cause some of it’s maybe controversial, especially with dharma protectors, you know?
But Lama Dawa was just open about everything and ex- answered all my questions, you know, that I’ve been trying to get answers to. And, and even things that you’d find in the Ganachakra feasts, you know, sort of provocative lines. What is this? And he was just very forthcoming with, you know, and obviously very comfortable with the material, you know.
And so that was the first thing that impressed me. And also his, um, you know, he also was an acharya. This made him very unique. He was not only a ngagpa and an accomplished yogi, he had gone to Sanskrit University and did the whole philosophy to get his acharya degree, so he had the scholastic academic background, and he was a ngagpa.
This very unique combination that you usually find one or the other. And so he was like an encyclopedia, and so open and generous to share with us newbie Westerners about all this deep esoteric stuff. So that was one of the things that I was very, um, taken with, um, this open and generous, unabashed willingness to talk about things.
Um, the other thing was that he was kind of ma- he was very magical. You know, anyone around him, he really was like this elf , you know? He obviously, he was always in touch with this other realm and had direct communication and lived accordingly, you know? He It was hard for him to live in America. He, you know, the only way he could be here was through me.
He really didn’t function on our timescale and our … You know, that w- it was one of the challenges of being married to him is, you know, I had to take care of everything. He didn’t drive. He didn’t, wasn’t on the internet. It took him a long time before he would even use a telephone. Making schedules and having this kind of, you know, organized way that we section off time is not how they are.
You know, they’re literally beating to a different drummer, you know? And so it was kind of like fitting a square peg in a round hole sometimes. Very challenging. And for me, I always had one foot in both. You know, I had to manage this, getting him ready to go on an airplane to go fly somewhere, you know, and yet he’s, he’s completely in s- in sync with different things.
And there were some times at the last minute he would say, “No, we can’t do this,” you know, ’cause he would get messages, you know. Very spontaneous. He’d wake up and say, “I, you know, dude, you remember she came to me in my dream and we have to do this just now. We have to do a retreat right now.” And I’d have to drop everything and have everything ready, and then we’d have to do this practice right now.
You know, like this kind of paying attention to different signs and signals that we don’t pay attention to, ’cause we’re locked into this kind of conventional timeframe and our schedules and taking care of our bills and our household things. You know? So it was kind of in- it was very interesting. He really lived, uh…
He was very magical that way, and you know, that’s how other people … He loved to tell stories. He had these great stories, and he had these wonderful twinkling eyes that just, you know, just drew you right into his, his magical realm. Yeah.
[00:26:58] Olivia: And how has it been for you, you know, ’cause h- he passed in 2017. Yeah.
How ha- how has it been then just shifting in, just thinking of what you’re just sharing now, kind of having feet in both realms? What is it like for you now?
[00:27:14] Khandro Kunzang: Well, it’s definitely a transition. You know, it’s certainly a transition for me because I’ve been left with this responsibility. You know, I, it, in 2011, I was enthroned and actually 2008 I was enthroned by Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche in 2011.
And so I knew that I had to continue his work, right? So, so I have a very strong sense of, um, the responsibility of continuing what he set out to do. Um, and, you know, I feel his presence so strongly, and I’m very protected. You know, so, you know, and I, and I get these intuitive messages and… But it’s not this, you know, I cannot step into his shoes.
You know, it’s like, and I always knew from my teachers when they said, “Now, you know, when we’re gone, when I’m gone and Lama Dawa’s gone, you have to teach this in your land.” So I’m very aware that I’m not Tibetan, you know, and I, so I take the essence of what I’ve learned and how to translate that into our culture, and that’s, that’s sort of my challenge.
You know, trying to find the language, trying to find the, mm, the relevance. What are the relevance of these old teachings that can seem to be some archaic culture from the past? How is it relevant to us now? Well, it is. Because it’s describing a, a whole dimension of reality that we don’t normally take into consideration that very much is at play with, you know, what’s going on in the world right now.
You know, so I think it is relevant. So it’s my, mm, my task and my challenge, and I’m certainly learning as I go along and But I’m very much guided by him. You know, I’m very much, I’m clear about what, what to accept and what to reject and the path and what they wanted, you know, his idea. Because he wanted for us, this whole Ngakpa tradition, he wanted for us Westerners to be able to do all these things.
Like he’s like, “Don’t depend on the Lamas over in Asia to do these things for you. You have to learn how to do these things.” The pra- the kind of practical things. And so he dedicated himself to teaching his students how to perform simple things like the Ke Ba Shi, but even the students who had been going on the path of practice to how to conduct the fire pujas and do some of the more advanced ritual practices that are activities.
These are activity practices. It’s very important that we know how to do these things. And like many times he made precious pills, Mindrup precious pills, ’cause he wants us to know how to do this. In the future you have to make these things. You have to continue the lineage of these sacred substances, right?
So he, he put a lot of effort and dedication into teaching and I sometimes feel like we didn’t do enough to absorb it, you know? It’s like, that’s my regret, is like, oh, you know, he’s gone. You know? So but you just do the best you can. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:30:34] Olivia: In 1999 you traveled to Nepal to meet with Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, a renowned, as you mentioned, Nyingmapa, tsalung and Dzogchen master and-
Mm
can you speak about him, both what you know of him as a yogi and your personal experience with him?
[00:30:50] Khandro Kunzang: Yeah, sure I became aware of him,
uh, when Lama Dawa… When I invited Lama Dawa to come to Maryland, it was in 1998 when I met Lama Dawa, you know, and then I was like, “I have to invite him to come to our center in Maryland.” And he came and the, and taught there. And then at that time he told me, “You have to come to Nepal because I want you to meet my teacher, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche.”
So he’s putting the bug in my ear, like, I don’t know who Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche is, but he had a picture of him. And I saw this picture and I thought, “Oh.” I just saw myself like, “Oh yeah, I gotta meet him.” Like this kind of, oh. And so then it was the year after, 1999, Lama Dawa and I did this exhausting tour in the US and then went to Nepal.
Then that, I went to Nepal and Lama Dawa took me to meet him. So I kinda had this anticipation like, “Who’s this mythical figure?” Of course, I’ve heard all these stories from Lama Dawa and, um, so I’d heard these things and saw pictures and so I was, you know, like, wow, you know, feeling this anticipation. He lived in Pharping at the time, and so we took the taxi to see him and all.
You know, it was one of those incredible moments, you know, our eyes met and it was time and space collapsing and I just like, “I know you.” Very like this inexplicable knowing. And, um, you know, he looks at me and nods and I go up into his room and the first thing he did, you know, he’s sitting on his, the Tibetan couches that they sit on, and he reaches under his, then he has this big plastic bag full of photographs, just all kinds of photographs just thrown into a plastic bag.
And he pulls out these photograph, beautiful picture of a lake in northern Tibet. I don’t know where it is, but it’s this beautiful scenic picture. Somebody must have given it to him. And it was all like s- sparse mountains and this crystalline blue lake, and in the front is like horns of a yak in the sand, you know, like a skull.
And he shows me this picture and, and I didn’t speak Tibetan at the time, so Lama Dawa was translating and he’s like, “What, where is this? Where is this?” No. You know, I’m looking at this picture, but I could feel the tears coming. I don’t know where this is. I … And then he pulls out another picture with the one with the yak on it, and he’s like, “What’s that?”
And I say, “Well, that’s a yak.” You know, and Lama Dawa’s like, “No, that’s a dong, dong, the wild yak.” And like … So he’s like, “Where is this?” But I didn’t know, but the tears are … I don’t know why these tears are coming. And then it was later that Lama Dawa said, “Oh, he’s showing you those pictures, ’cause that’s where you were in your past life.”
‘Cause he had known me when he was a young man in Tibet in the 1940s and ’50s. I apparently, I was there, and he knew me. So we had this kind of personal connection that, uh, got kind of validated to me. But that’s how he kind of present… He didn’t say, “I know you.” Oh, no. “Here’s a picture. Where is this? Who is that?”
You know, that’s … And even though I, my conceptual mind didn’t know, the tears are coming. Mm-hmm. Right? So something new. Anyhow, so that’s how he was. You know, he, um, he had perfect, what they say in Tibetan, ngöshe. Ngöshe means clairvoyance, like clairvoyance, telepathy. He would look at you and know everything you’re thinking.
He knew everything about you. He knows all the secrets you’re hiding. Uh, don’t lie to him because he will know. You know, he had this kind of ability to, to just look at you and know everything about you. And, um, he used to test us. Lama Dawa, you know, ’cause a lot of his students would, “I wanna meet Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche.”
They’d come to Nepal and, you know, they’d get to meet Rinpoche, and Rinpoche would give them the same test. You know, they’d be kneeling in front of Rinpoche, and Rinpoche’s looking down at them and he’d say, “If you’re…” Let’s say you’re a woman, “How many boyfriends you had?” He’d ask you, “How many boyfriends you had?”
And you’d see the surprised look on their face, and then, then the calculating going on in their mind, you know. And, and you have to, like, come up with a number, right? Like, how many boy… And of course what he meant was how many people you had sex with, right? And you had to come up with this number, and if you didn’t come up with the right number, he would say, “Oh, you’re a liar.
What about this one? You forgot this one.” And he would very specifically say, at, and it’s some kind of scenario. Oh, and you’d just look at these people’s faces. But he would test people this way, and it was his way of knowing, is this person gonna be honest with me or are they gonna te- are they gonna hide stuff?
You know, and he would be very confrontative with people who tried to hide and lie or deflect. That’s how he was. So some people considered him to be a wrathful lama because he’s very confrontational, doesn’t let you get away with, you know, kind of telling a lie or exaggerating or trying to hide something.
This was very, very important to him, that you be very transparent and very honest. That’s how you gain the trust of teachers like this. And, um, but he had this ability and- You know, Lama Dawa and I would, you know, I’d be in Nepal for six months doing retreat, and then we’d go back to the US and tour around.
And while we were in the US, Rinpoche sometimes he would ca- have somebody call us and want to talk to us, and he knew what we were doing. He knew who we were with, and he’d be like, “How come you said such and such to this person? Why you done like this?” Like, how could he possibly know, you know? We’re halfway across the world.
But he know, he knew where we were and what we were doing and what we were saying to people. So he’s like this kind of, this kind of siddha, you know, this kind of ngakpa. And, um, yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s how he was. So, you know, he was… A lot of people were afraid of him, a lot of Tibetans. He never had a lot of students, you know.
He was a difficult teacher. But for me, that’s what I wanted. I wanted a no-nonsense teacher that wasn’t gonna let me get away with the little games that we always play. We play games all the time, even with ourselves, you know. The, that ego mind is always wanting to deflect and make stories and manipulate our circumstances.
But he, you know, he was the teacher who wasn’t gonna let you get away with it, you know. And, you know, it was difficult. You know, he didn’t live up to your expectations, you know. Sometimes he would say, you know, “Come at this time and where I’m gonna give you these teachings”, and, you know, I’d have to get all ready, and I’d show up, and he’d be like, “Nah, go away.
Not today”, you know. And I’d be all angry, like, “Argh”. You know, so like this. These kind of teachers that don’t live on your agenda. You cannot manipulate them. You cannot, you cannot seduce them. You cannot, you know, wheel and deal with them, these kind of teachers. Very solid in who they are. And one of the reasons why I ha- I had so much devotion to him, and also Lama Dawa, is because they had the capacity to be critical of their own culture, actually You know, they weren’t even playing the Tibetan game.
You know, every culture we have our game that we play to get ahead and, you know, to become well-known or to have a certain position in society, and they didn’t care less about this and always avoided this. You know, Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche had many opportunities to have an important position, and he always turned away from it and chose the life of, of a, you know, a yogi that, you know, in his early days wandered from place to place.
In the later days he lived in our house. The last nine years of his life he lived in our house and, um, till he passed away and we cremated his body on the roof of our house.
[00:39:24] Olivia: I just appreciate so much Your personal desire to not be able to fool around and to not be able to deceive yourself or manipulate the situation.
[00:39:33] Khandro Kunzang: I think that came as a result of the experience I had when I read Yeshe Tsogyal’s life story and I saw that my life I was living was a lie and how I had constructed this lie even though I thought I had a perfect life. I’m never leaving. This is perfect. But it was a lie and, and then from that experience of You know, this idea of renunciation that’s so important in Buddhism is really when you’re just sick of going around in circles.
You know, there’s something in you that I’m just tired of. I don’t want to do go around in circles anymore. Something very deep recognizes the, the kind of fallacy of it. You know, it’s like the things you thought were the ambitions you had are really not that important. Something happens when you have that kind of experience of real renunciation.
And for me, it was this book that triggered it. For other people, it’s other triggers or comes as a, as a result of doing deep meditative practices and realizing emptiness, this important idea of seeing through the, the solidity of things and, um So then, then it’s like you don’t wanna fool around anymore.
I don’t wanna waste any more time. I was already in my 30s, and so I think that’s why. It’s like, no, I un- inconsciously like these are the teachers I need, the ones that aren’t gonna play games, the ones that also… The thing I appreciated about him and Lama Dawa is I didn’t see them really using their students, you know.
And I, I do see a certain amount of this. The teachers, they, they you know, they want students to be their worker bees, to work for their projects, you know, to of course bring money for their monasteries. There’s a certain element of that that goes on. They didn’t care about this. They were poor, and they didn’t have this kind of ambition.
They had no monasteries to fund. They had no big organizations to run. They were completely outside of this. And so I never felt that I was being used or taken advantage of, that they truly had my best interest in my… as long as I demonstrated the dedication to the path. They… It’s almost like they could see my potential even I, even if I couldn’t see it, you know, and that that’s what they were relating to, you know.
So I think that, that’s goes along with those experiences of just being tired of samsara. And then you find a teacher who also was tired of samsara, not really playing the game. Yeah.
[00:42:18] Olivia: Well, so y- you’re, you were just talking about how Kunzang Dorje lived with you until his passing. Mm-hmm. And during that time you did a lot of retreat with him.
You mentioned the six months during that one period of time. so you received with him the entire cycles of teachings and empowerments of the Rigdzin Sugdrub lineage.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Can you speak about that particular lineage and, and also if there’s anything you’d be willing to share about the- Sure
the tsalung and tummo from that lineage as well.
[00:42:45] Khandro Kunzang: Yeah, sure. Yeah, he came to live with us after we, um, built a house in Boda, a- and he moved in in 2002, 2001, like on the cusp of 2001, 2002, and he lived on the top floor. It’s a four-story house that every story is its own apartment, and he moved in on the fourth floor, and we lived on the third floor.
And he and his wife, uh, Ani Sangpel we call her, uh, moved upstairs from Pharping up into… And so we then were taking care of them in, in the end of their life and, um- Yeah, and so I, for many years, from 1999, my first trip, excuse me, spent five, six months in Nepal and was mostly in retreat, you know. So I had done the equivalent of a three-year retreat, but it was six months on, six months off, six months on, six months off.
It was kind of divided like this. And so while I’m in Nepal, I’m, I’m in retreat working on this path of practice. And I actually went through the Dudjom ter first, finishing the Dudjom, the short Dudjom ngondro, then the medium length ngondro, and then doing the generation stage practice of the Dakini, the Khandro Tuktik, and then Guru Tsokyé Dorje, and then Vajrakilaya.
And that was under Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche’s, um, supervision. You know, so first I went through the three roots of the Dudjom lineage and, um, in the generation stage practice. And then from there he had me segue into the Rigdzin Södrup and go right into the Anu Yoga of Vajrayogini in the Rigdzin Södrup lineage, which is his main lineage.
You know, when he was in Tibet, he… That was his main practice. Um, and of course, he’s also a Dudjom Lama, you know, but the Rigdzin Södrup was his kind of special lineage that he held. And, you know, back in the ’60s and ’70s, um, he was recognized at that time when the Tibetans were trying to, you know, reconstruct their lineages that both the Dalai Lama and Dudjom Rinpoche recognized Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche to be the kind of
premier Nyingmapa Tsalung lineage holder at that time. He was in Tso Pema and requested him to lead a group of people in three-year retreats to pass on his lineage. So, you know, that was kind of recognized early on. And so, so fast-forward, now it’s 2006, ‘7, ‘8, like this, and I’m… been doing these retreats in Nepal.
And then, so then he decided that now it’s time for me to go to, to the Rigdzin Södrup. So I first did the Tsalung in the Rigdzin Södrup under him, and then after that I did the Tsalung in the Khandro Tuktik, and that was under Lama Pema Dorje. And then after that, I went into the Tsalung in the Vajrakilaya, and that was under Lopön Namgyal Rinpoche.
And that was actually Shenpen Dawa Rinpoche sent me to him to get the, uh, Vajrakilaya Tsalung. That was in 2017, actually And, um, I was a little bit too old, but I had to do it. So but yeah, the Rigdzin Södrup, um, it’s a really special lineage and, um, but it’s kind of the main lineage of Sikkim. You know, if you go to Sikkim, these monasteries are all practicing in the Rigdzin Södrup pujas.
And Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche led a three-year retreat in Sikkim to bring these yogic traditions, the inner salong and tummo back into Sikkim because they had lost the yogic tradition. So that’s one of the things about these lineages is they have these inner yogic practices that are kind of specialties, and not everybody practices salong.
That’s one of the things that a lot of people don’t realize. It’s a specialty practice that only certain people will do, and so you have the yogis that are holding that part of a lineage. And so Rinpoche’s job, and it was also prophesized by Guru Rinpoche that he would do this, he would strengthen the tummo ’cause it would go very weak as a result of this, you know, refugee situation of the communists coming in and destroying So he, you know, he did that in Sikkim to, to strengthen this and, um, but he– because he had recognized me also as an emanation of Migyur Paldron, which I didn’t know until many years later.
It was actually at the time that he decided I needed to have the Rigdzin Södrup. That’s when he told me . He’s like, “This is your share. You have to take this.” You know, “You have to do this.” So, so yeah, then he was– he, over a period of several years when I was in Nepal, my training with him, it was interesting because he wanted to do it undercover because his other Tibetan students were very jealous actually.
Rinpoche was giving me many, many teachings. “Why he, why he’s giving it to this American lady?” And, “Oh, it must be because she’s Lama Dawa’s wife or…” So sh– what he would do is at night when everybody would go home, and if you’ve ever been to Nepal, you know they all lock their gates. They have, like, bars on the windows and bars on the doors.
Everybody goes home when it gets dark, and everybody locks up. And then after dinner, I would go upstairs to the fourth floor with Lama Dawa, and I would get teachings late into the wee hours of the morning, and this would go on day after day after day. And then I would go down in my room, and I’d be practicing, and people didn’t know this.
You know, life would go on around, and I’m in my room doing the practices until he would call me up again, and I’d again go up at night. And this is how, this is how it happened for many years, and I was told at the time, “You don’t tell anybody that I’m doing this,” because there was a lot of jealousy actually.
And it wasn’t until later then he opened this and, um, but that’s how I, I had my training with him over the course of those years and went through the, the Rigdzin Södrup, um, Anu Yoga practices. You know, the Tsa Lung is just a part of Anu Yoga, right? And, and Anu Yoga is the tummo. The tummo is the first part of all these yoga practices, and then the Tsa Lung or sometimes you say trulkhor is just one practice.
It’s the outer physical exercises that are used to remove the, the, um, obstacles in the channel so that you can actually accomplish the tummo. The tummo is the main practice, which is all kind of visualization, um, and breathwork, certain kinds of breathwork. But the trulkhors and the movements are to help remove obstacles in the channels to make it easier to accomplish those practices.
And so Yeah. And so, and then after that comes the other branch practices, the illusory body practice and Bardo and Dream Yoga. Those are branch practices. The Tummo is the main one, so many years are spent on this actually. There’s outer, inner, and secret levels of this. And, um, and then after that are these branch practices.
And so, yeah.
Can you speak on the outer, inner, and secret levels of Tummo?
Yeah, sure. I mean, the outer level, uh, is like the trulkhor, right? The exercises. That’s what, uh, more people are becoming familiar with now ’cause it’s being taught a little more openly. And, um, so they say trulkhor movements and exercises.
And, um, but they… You know, the thing is that I, I always like to remind people that these trulkhors are associated with deities, right? And so even though they’re, they’re kind of being taught, I see people teaching them and people are learning the moves, they are actually done in the context of sadhana.
You are the deity doing those exercises. You have to be that. That’s, you know… And if you’re just doing the exercises and you’re not meditating that you’re the deity, it’s… You can’t really call this tsalung. I mean, it’s something else. That’s a very important point. And so in order to do those practices, you have to do the Maha Yoga stage of generating yourself as the deity until you have what they call pride of the deity.
[00:51:34] Olivia: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:34] Khandro Kunzang: Right? And that is actualizing yourself. Your nature is the nature of the deity, and stabilizing your meditation in that. And of course, when you’re doing these generation stage retreats where you’re sitting in sadhana and you’re reciting millions of mantras and enacting this visualization, you’re sitting, right?
So it’s, you know, it’s one thing to To sort of abide in a meditative state when you’re sitting. But now in the tsalung you gotta move around and maintain this meditation of yourself as the deity while you’re jumping around. You know, and so but that’s, that’s the key. The key is you are the deity. And then there’s practices of they call the tonglen, the empty body practices that your, your body is this transparent and then from that arises this subtle energy system, the central channel and the chakras.
And what’s very interesting is in that tradition, Tibetans never talk about chakras and channels until they get to that point in their practice. Mm. So it’s kind of interesting that there’s, there’s not even interested in it. Like we in the West, we’re so fascinated with subtle energy and chakras and channels, and we lear- we wanna learn all about it.
But in the way that it’s traditionally taught, it’s like until you get to those practices, they don’t really care about it. You know, it’s often the first time that they’re even introduced to these ideas. Mm. You know, because that’s when you’re going to use those visualizations in the context of those practices.
And, and the other thing I see Westerners getting a little bit confused about is all these descriptions of chakras and channels are different depending on which tantric cycle and which deity and which practice you’re doing, and people get confused about that. In this text it says, you know, the crown chakra is this color, and how come in this text it’s another color or it has different numbers?
Or, you know, some people will say, you know, the r- right, the, the two kyang ma rol ma, the right is white and the left is red, or it’s reversed. It’s like people get… They don’t understand that those are just skillful means for you to work with your energy. That doesn’t… It’s not an anatomy class if that’s how it is.
You’re not talking about anatomy, like a fixed thing that… You’re constructing it with your mind. It’s what you’re meditating on to create these experiences, right? Like in… A lot of people are familiar with phowa, right? And so in phowa they tell you to visualize the crown chakra opening up like a trumpet, you know, so that you can, you can open this area, right?
It’s not saying that that’s how it actually is, but to help you get those experiences, it’ll describe your subtle energy. So, you know, that’s something that you kind of realize when you’re doing these practices, that this subtle energy system we’re working with is just light and sound, and we’re creating it.
We’re, we’re making it this way through the practices that we’re doing. And by medit- by meditating on the, the tummo of this body, that becomes our form. We’re creating this form body, and from that arises this deity. You know? And so, and then all these exercises you’re doing, you’re doing it from the meditation that you’re the deity doing this.
That’s absolutely essential It’s not your meat body. My, my teacher would say your meat body. It’s not your meat body jumping around. You know, he used to say even Olympic athletes, they have very perfect tso lung, but they know nothing. You know? And it’s not about athleticism at all, or even how well you can do some of the difficult moves.
It has to do with your meditative absorption on yourself as the deity. And so one of the things that helps you to stabilize that is lear- learning the bum chen, the vase breath. Right? The vase breath comes in. You start learning and training in the vase breath, and all that is is to stabilize your shamatha.
That’s what it is. While you’re moving around and jumping around, you’re holding this vase. That’s your pranic energy to hold the mind while you’re moving around. So, um, it’s, you know, just deepening your meditation. It’s all skillful means to deepen your meditation so that you realize your true nature.
That’s all. All these practices lead to that. Right? And tso lung is just a really complicated, complex system of working, employing all of your body, speech, and mind onto the path. It’s a path of effort. You know, they call it the path of effort ’cause it is. It’s hard. It’s really hard. And I was kind of older.
I was 45 when I started training in it, and that’s kind of old. You know? And I know that some traditions in, in Tibet in the old days, if you were older than 30, they wouldn’t teach this to you, and I think the Drukpa Kagyu still hold that rule. They feel that if you’re older than 30, your channel … This is something that, uh, Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo shared with me, you know, that your channels have already degenerated and it’s too dangerous because there’s a lot of really, um, tough moves.
You could definitely damage your spine, your knees, your joints, um, and if you’re older, you’re more prone to those injuries, and injuries do happen. Absolutely do happen. And-
[00:57:21] Olivia: Considering that you’ve done so many different versions of tsalung with different traditions, do you feel that that’s the case, or do you think it’s
Is it an outdated notion to not begin tsa lung after 30?
[00:57:34] Khandro Kunzang: It’s definitely outdated, and my guru told the story when he was first asked to teach tso lung in Tso Pema in the ’60s To open your lineage and Dudjom Rinpoche collected, I think, a group of 13 Lamas and among them was Lama Tarchin and Lama Pema Dorje, and there were some other ones I don’t remember.
So he had… But one Lama, Ngakpa Sherab Dorje, who some people will know because he was said to be Lama Tarchin’s uncle. He was of the Repkong Ngakpas. You see these pictures of him with these big dreadlocks. He was 55 years old at the time, and he wanted to be in that course, and Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche said, “No, you’re too old.”
So Ngakpa Sherab Dorje went to Dudjom Rinpoche and complained. He’s like, “I wanna be in that course. You know, you have to…” He was a very forceful guy, apparently. So Dudjom Rinpoche told Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, “Just let him be in it, you know, just make him happy. It, it’ll be a good blessing.” Well, he was the best one.
He outdid those young guys, you know? And so my teacher changed his view ’cause that was like a rule they had. They, maybe they didn’t even… But here, so Ngakpa Sherab Dorje kind of proved to him that You know, sometimes the age doesn’t matter. And then Rinpoche said to me, “You know, you Westerners are healthy, you know, like this.”
And, uh, he also felt since I had some past life propensity for this, apparently in my past life when he knew me, I was a Six Yogas of Naropa teacher for the Taglung Kagyu, so I had some kind of karmic propensity for it. So he made those exceptions. And so but now I see Lamas are making those exceptions.
And, you know, the last training I did with, um, Lopön Namgyal Rinpoche, that was with 30 other of his students in Nepal. There was a couple people older than me. Most, most of them are very young. Young meaning 20s, 30s, um, but there were some older people. So I have found that they’ve– the Nyingmapas have relaxed that rule, but I do think the Drukpa Kagyu still adhere to that because it is true.
There’s– you, you can really hurt yourself, you know, during, during… They’re very hard, very difficult practices. And they don’t, um… They’re always done in the coldest time of year. You know, they calculate astrologically when it’s gonna be the coldest time because you’re con- you’re conjoining it with tummo practice.
And so you’re out there in these little skirts and, you know, you’re naked, basically, sitting out there in the freezing cold, and, uh, there’s no warm-ups like in the West we warm up before we… Oh, no. There’s no warm-ups, you know. So it’s hard on the joints, it’s hard on the ligaments. And that’s the other thing is, like, you don’t practice this the rest of your life.
My teachers didn’t. It’s a course that you’re doing, right? You’re going through this course, and it’s part of the outer tsalo, tsalung outer, inner, secret levels, right? So it’s the outer level of proficiency, and when certain signs come, then you’re working on the inner levels, right? So the inner levels are working with pipes, the tenma, or vajroli they would call it.
And so that’s a, that’s a very different practice. And then the secret level is a consort practice. So in the inner level, you’re learning to control the, the flows of the o- of the lower door. They say the lower door winds. You’re learning how to breathe in and out, and then after that, you’re working with a consort.
And, um, that’s the, uh, you know… And then after that, you’re going on to the other yoga practices, very short. You know, for me it was the, the dream yoga, illusory body. These are… They, they don’t spend much time in them because they’re branch practices. And then it goes into the Ati. You’re into the Ati The graduated path as I was trained in this graduated path
[01:01:39] Olivia: Do you have any thoughts on tending to the body from a yogic perspective?
[01:01:43] Khandro Kunzang: Yeah, I mean, there are Lu Jong. There are traditions of neyjang and Lu Jong, which maybe come from Tibetan medicine. Those are great for maintaining body health, right? They aren’t dependent on a deity yoga cycle r- ’cause, ’cause again, what I was training in is part of a path of practice in, in situ with that tradition, right?
So they’re associated with deity yoga, and a- any deity cycle, whether it’s Chakrasamvara or whether it’s Vajrakilaya, they all have their tsa lung part of their cycle. It’s part of the anut- or the completion stage, the dzogren. They all have a tsa lung. So this training that I’m talking about is part of that tradition.
But besides that, there are Lu Jong exercises, there are neyjang now that Tibetan medicine… and they draw from, there’s some similar things. Mm-hmm. Absolutely similar things.
Sure.
You know, and there’s some parts of the, um, tsa lung that are the preliminary steps of tsa lung. Sometimes I teach those, ’cause they’re nice ways to warm up the joints, just taking them out as, like, a separate practice.
so I think it’s important to make the distinction, at least in my case, and of course I’m only talking from my own experience. Like, I don’t claim to be an expert on this. I’m not a scholar. I only know what I’ve been taught by my teachers who were old school yogis, and this is how they were taught in Tibet.
But the tsa lung that I was taught is part of this bigger tradition, and it wasn’t taken, it wasn’t taken out of context and then practiced as some separate thing, right? So But I know that there are tsoloms being taught that are just these exercises, and they don’t necessarily… They aren’t part of the bigger path, you know?
So, Yeah. So I have to make that kind of disclaimer just so people are clear when I’m saying tsalung, this is what I mean.
[01:03:45] Olivia: I like the differentiation between, the Nejung and the Lojong. People can-
Yeah …
lean in that direction potentially if they’re interested in the physical aspects versus, you know- Yeah
being involved in a cycle, a, deity associated tsalung. And I
[01:04:00] Khandro Kunzang: think things like this Yantra Yoga by Namkhai Norbu, that’s also a system, right? Mm-hmm. There’s other systems- Yeah … that other Lamas have taught that are probably excellent for physical health, and that’s important. It is really important to keep ourselves fit ’cause if, if we’re in pain, it’s hard to sit and do practice.
You know, if we’re not feeling clear and vibrant. We need this.
[01:04:24] Olivia: In speaking about
tsalung,
can you share about subtle energetic systems?
[01:04:30] Khandro Kunzang: Well, I mean, they all share the idea that there’s the central channel and there’s two side channels- Yeah … which are masculine and feminine, and they’re sort of the, the first division of, of a unified whole.
The central channel is like the absolute nature, and that absolute then divides into these two polarities, feminine, masculine, or solar and lunar. Sometimes they use the solar and lunar channels. So that’s like, that’s our core, right? That, and that’s largely what we’re working with. And then from there branch off other channels in particular places, the crown, the throat, the heart, the navel like this.
There’s usually five main centers in the Buddhist tradition-
[01:05:14] Olivia: Mm-hmm …
[01:05:14] Khandro Kunzang: that are where channels branch off, and they, you know- And then they spread all through the body and they go beyond the body, out the pores of the skin, right? So every place we have a hair, there’s little micro channels, you know, radiating out, and that creates our aura.
Like, we feel this auric field. That’s actually part of our subtle body with all these micro channels radiating out, right? So… But I think that’s a kind of generalized, um, they all share that idea. And then in those channels are circulating wind. When they say wind in Tibetan, you could say prana. Um, but they use the word wind, and those are divided into five major kinds, and then there’s five kinds that power the senses, the, the hearing and the smelling.
And so those are circulating, and they actually are associated with some physical functions, like the downward… The wind they call the downward-voiding wind that flows from the root down is associated with elimination, right? Elimination. So, you know, peeing and, you know, passing, um, poop, a woman’s menstrual cycle and orgasm.
You know, anything that’s sort of outward, um, from the lower. And then there’s winds like the upward-moving wind that’s responsible for breath. You know, the… So they have physical correlations that have to do with our metabolic functions of the physical body, for sure. Um, but they also can be used to fuel different kinds of exper- spiritual experiences You know, and so then in the, in the tummo specifically we’re working with a masculine/feminine force that’s in the navel and in the crown.
So they would say the red and the white elements, you know? And it’s this way of bringing these two forces together and engendering certain experiences, and then spreading those experiences through all the chakra systems. And then ex- you know, these different… They call blisses, right? So there’s different experiences of bliss, and then they have their counterpart of emptiness.
It’s always bliss, and then that’s the kind of motive force that pushes you to go beyond into an experience of emptiness. Right? So it’s a practice that’s u- really using the experience of bliss to actualize emptiness, ’cause bliss, emptiness are always two sides of the same coin. That’s the tummo way, but you can also, people who are very deep meditators of Shamatha-Vipassana, they can have the same experience, but they’re doing it through the emptiness way, right?
So you can either do it through body energy or you do it through mental meditation, samadhi, but they go to the same place. They really go to the same place, and the tummo and the tsoglam are just a skillful means of a way to get there, right? But it’s not actually necessary. And from people from a high dzogchen perspective will say that those are lower practices.
Those are for slowpokes. Those are for people of low capacity who don’t have the capacity to just arrive in samadhi through the force of their meditative concentration. They gotta do all this hard work to get there. You know, that’s a perspective. Longchenpa says this, you know. Dudjom Lingpa also. “Well, you know, if you can’t, then go do some tsoglam.”
You know? So just depends on your perspective, but it’s just a, it’s a very skillful method to purify, okay? So it’s purifying the five winds, which is to say you’re purifying the five poisons to realize the five wisdoms. There’s all these kind of expressions in the Buddhist tradition. But it really is to actualize your true nature and to, to kind of remove all of the veils that are, um, in the way of you actualizing your true nature.
Which is kind of symbolized by the central channel, right? The central channel is kind of like where we’re trying to um, actualize that, um, source point of who we really are. And all the other, uh, you know, things are just elaborations getting in the way. But we, you know, we always li- we live on the surface of things, right?
Don’t we? I mean, just our own caught in thoughts and caught in… We’re not living from our center and our core. We’re not living from that absolute state. We’re always caught up in, you know elaboration. Mm-hmm. So, so the Tsok Jong is using our mind’s natural tendency to elaborate to make very elaborate visualizations to bring us into the core.
[01:10:15] Olivia: will you speak more, too, about the blisses? the connection between the navel and the crown in particular around bliss emptiness?
[01:10:23] Khandro Kunzang: Well, the, the, the navel red essence is what we get from our mother at the time of conception, and then the white essence of the crown is our, the essence we get from our father.
So at the moment of conception, these two, these two are the same, and then they split, and that forms the central channel as an embryo, right? So they, they kind of separate, and then, then that’s where they’re situated. And so it’s our way of bringing those back together in unity. You know? It’s, it’s a way of bringing that together in unity.
But in, in the meantime, along the way where all these concentrated plexus of channels are concentrated inside, there’s also a constellation of what they call bindus or tigles. These are sort of drops of pure awareness-
that they coalesce in these areas. And so they become activated, and that’s what gives rise to what you could call an experience of bliss, right?
And so… And that could happen with, you know, Shamatha meditation. One of the, the keynote signs of arriving on these jhanic states is bliss, luminosity, and non-conceptuality. So the experience of bliss is as a result of our stilling the noise, you know, of the conceptual thought to come into the true essence of who we are, and that is a na- it’s naturally experienced as bliss.
It’s a natural state. We have this capacity. It’s our natural, um, being. The bliss of joy. You know, bliss is kind of a funny word, you know? But it is a physical sensation, right? It’s not just an emotional state. It’s a distinct physical sensation. And of course, the closest thing, the closest metaphor we have is sexual orgasm.
But that’s even kind of crude compared to the experience of bliss because that can be experienced anywhere in the body, and it actually can be experienced off the body. You know, you can experience bliss in your auric field. You know, it’s not localized. And so but, you know, there are places that are known to, um- easily engender it because there’s a concentration of tigle in those areas.
And so therefore, the tummo practice is this systematic way they call the melting and the dripping to access this and to activate this. And each one has a different name, and they have a different quality, and, you know, it kind of… You become like a connoisseur. You know, like a wine taster can taste wine, and they know, like, what year it was from and, you know, what kind of grape it was.
Like this, you start to… You know, bliss is bliss, but then you start to, like, get into, like, hmm, subtle differences between them, and you have to learn this, you know? And because they also give rise to different forms of emptiness, right? There’s not just emptiness. There’s actually different qualities of emptiness, and you start to refine that And come to know that
[01:13:40] Olivia: Closing the retreat sharing, you know, you being in the same space as your teacher on the floor underneath.
I’m curious just as- Yeah … you’re doing the practices, ’cause, you know, not many people have such an intimate experience with their teacher in that way where they can really progress at the rate that they’re really ripe for. You
[01:14:02] Khandro Kunzang: know? You know, it’s interesting ’cause it took me a long time before I realized how unique my situation was, ’cause I was kind of in this very insular thing and I thought everybody practiced that way.
Mm. But actually, traditionally that’s how it was. Like, even in the three-year retreat centers you had the retreat master actually living with you. And I’ve come to know that that’s not even the case even in places like Bhutan and they… You know, the teacher’s usually jet setting all over the world. Right And they’ll come and give the students a bunch of teachings, and then they leave, and then they’re kind of left to their own devices to kind of go continue with the teachings.
Maybe there’s a senior student there that can, you know, help them with some things. But it is… It, it’s kind of that, that model which is the real apprentice model or dis- guru-disciple model is kind of rare, I realize that. And I, I didn’t… But at the time I just thought everybody was doing like this. But it’s true.
I… All my retreats I had direct supervision with my teacher who ch- was checking in on me all the time, and it meant that, you know, as soon as I started to go astray I would get corrected constantly. But also what happens when you’re in retreat and you’re starting to give rise to certain experiences, there is a whole lineage of sacred oral instructions.
Now, this is something my teacher used to emphasize, and he used to say this lineage was dying. And they are the direct teachings your teacher gives you at the time because they see that certain m- maturity is happening in your mind, and you will get a, a different set of instructions that are not in the text.
You know, you’re still doing the basic sadhana, but then because certain experiences are arising the instructions change, and that’s an oral lineage that most people don’t… They’re, they don’t realize this and My gurus always scolded me when they saw me reading a book. You know, it’s like, “Don’t hang in the bookish knowledge,” they would say, you know?
And that’s, you know, but that’s what most people have. They have books and texts and lots of wonderful scholars doing translations, and they’re depending on text. But what I can say is that, especially texts that have to do with these yogic practices, is they’re just basic outlines. They’re just CliffNotes, really.
I mean, I don’t know how people could do practice just from that, ’cause there’s so much to it that is explained to you at the time or demonstrated to you at the time, and some of it is dependent on what, what you’re experiencing. For good or for bad, if you’re having difficulty and obstacles, different remedies are gonna be given to you.
Or if you’re, if you’re starting to have maybe more advanced experiences, then different
practices are gonna be given to you at the time. And that is the advantage of doing practice that way. But I think it’s very difficult. I think only the people… You have to spend a lot of time with your teacher, right? You really have to live with a teacher and spend a lot of time. And of course, that’s always the way it was.
It’s not so much anymore, but, um, that’s the, that’s the value of serving your teacher, like the, the traditional thing. You serve your teacher. You spend all this time with your teacher because you’re gonna get these more detailed instructions and personalized instructions for you. But that’s what they call the lineage of oral instructions.
And that’s a, it’s, it’s a ve- it’s a real lineage. You know, my guru was taught this from his teacher, taught from his teacher all the way back. It’s not they make it up in their mind. It’s not something they just spontaneously come up with. Oh, no, this comes from this lineage, and it’s not written down.
Sometimes they get written down. There’s some times when those kinds of things get written down, and then they’re made as like a commentary and, you know. But there’s a, there’s a very alive and viable lineage of oral instruction that’s… You know, unless you’re doing these kinds of retreats, you’re not gonna have much con- the teachers aren’t gonna teach this from the get-go.
You know, when you’re in and you’re really cooking, you know, then they’re gonna add this little spice ’cause you’re really cooking, you know, so…
[01:18:31] Olivia: What do you think about just this day and age? I mean, what are your thoughts in terms of having access to teachers, yogic masters? I think
[01:18:39] Khandro Kunzang: there still are yogic masters, but you’ve gotta make the effort to go find them, and you gotta be willing to move and change your life and make sacrifices.
Oh, no, they’re still there. I don’t, I don’t think that they’ve disappeared. I just think you’re, How willing… ‘Cause I made a lot of sacrifices. I sacrificed everything, gave up everything to follow my teachers and, you know, move to Nepal, marry Lama Dawa. It was not easy, you know. There were sacrifices I made.
And, um I think if you’re, you have again this renunciation experience and that, that true wish, right? That heartfelt wish and aspiration plus past life aspirations. Like don’t forget all these aspiration prayers that we chant all the time. You know, may I never be separate from my guru, may blah, blah, blah.
We’re chanting these aspiration prayers, and we probably did in a past life. Those aspiration prayers will come true, right? And you will meet that, but, but don’t miss the chance ’cause some people do meet, and they kind of, eh, they didn’t look the way they thought they should look, or the teacher didn’t give me that special attention I was looking for.
A- and a lot of Westerners don’t actually know how to, um, recognize what kind of qualities a teacher should have. They look for the wrong things. You know, they look for teachers who are famous or charismatic, or they wrote lots of books, or they’re popular, or, or, or the, or they’re te- or the teacher’s kind of treating them nice or something.
They sometimes overlook the ones who have the real… ‘Cause those teachers who have the real, they’re not gonna chase after students. They’re not gonna be out there chasing after you. You know, a real, a real teacher who is free of the eight worldly concerns doesn’t care about fame, doesn’t care to have a lot of students, you know, and they’re not gonna chase after you.
And you could meet them, and they could just seem like something ordinary. You know, they don’t have all the trappings. You know, sometimes people miss that. Um, but I think it comes from our own heartfelt wish. If, if you, if that’s something you really want and you recognize that and you’re willing to make those sacrifices, no, you can have that.
I think it’s possible. I know Westerners who are having those kinds of fortunate opportunities.
Thank you for listening If you enjoyed this interview, this is the first of five episodes with Khandro Kunzang
These will all be linked in the show notes