Erik is a dharma teacher, practitioner, and one of the most highly regarded Tibetan translators. We meet in his homeland of Denmark, where Erik shares stories of meditation masters he has spent time with, as well as on some essential aspects of the path and fruit of spiritual realization.
Time notes
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:24 Trulshik Adeu Rinpoche
00:04:50 Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche
00:12:22 Dilgo Khyentse and 16th Karmapa
00:13:25 Tulku Urgyen on nature of mind
00:17:20 Dilgo Khyentse’s style of teaching
00:20:44 Former training for realization
00:23:46 Tantras and sutras theatre
00:26:37 Chatral Sangye Dorje
00:27:30 Open-mindedness towards Bodhisattva activity
00:30:12 Outcome of denigrating a bodhisattva
00:36:00 Karmic links with humans and non-humans
00:39:44 Two accumulations
00:42:18 Instantaneous enlightenment
00:44:00 Seeking what makes sense in this life
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Previous conversations with Erik
About Erik Pema Kunsang
Erik was born in Denmark and since 1972 has studied and practiced the Buddha, and especially the teachings of Padmasambhava. He has been trained by many masters including the Dzogchen master Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche Rinpoche, whom he stayed with for 16 years as servant and interpreter. Since 1975 he is guided by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche. During Rinpoche’s encouragement Erik initiated a study center and a translation program in 1981, both with the name Rangjung Yeshe. Erik has translated and published over 60 volumes and his Tibetan-English dictionary is freely available on the Internet. Founder of bodhitraining.com. He is active in facilitating the teaching of Buddha in the West and teaches in both Danish and English at the Rangjung Yeshe Gomde retreat center on Helgenæs in Denmark. His articles levekunst.com.
Gomde Denmark https://gomde.dk/
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Rough transcript, please excuse all errors
[00:00:00]
My name is Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. Today our guest is Erik Pema Kunsang. Erik is one of the most highly regarded Tibetan translators and interpreters. He has translated and published more than 55 volumes of Tibetan texts and oral teachings. He has been trained by many masters including the Dzogchen Master Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, with whom he lived for 16 years as an assistant and an interpreter. Erik created a study center and a translation program in 1981, both under the name Rangjung Yeshe. and in recent years has created the Bodhi Training Program, a two year education initiative that [00:01:00] explores all levels of insight into the Buddha’s teachings. Today we meet in his homeland of Denmark at the Gomde Center, where Erik can often be found teaching Dharma. This is our second interview. You can see the show notes for the link to that conversation.
Olivia: Thank you so much, Erik, for taking the time, especially after this beautiful retreat that you co-taught with Rinpoche. And you always tell these very helpful stories about your experiences with realized masters, and I was wondering if today we could hear maybe about some of the masters you’ve spent time with, and examples of how they’ve made an impression on you in terms of your timeless and destructible nature.
So either through. teaching that they shared through words or their embodiment. So I thought maybe we could start with, Tulku Urgyen because you’ve [00:02:00] spent, you spent 16 years alongside him, and if there is maybe a story or experience that you would be willing to share,
the
Erik: first thing that comes to mind is, um.
a close, childhood friend of Tulku Urgyen, and by the name, , Trulshik Adeu Rinpoche, who is also one of the teachers of, Rinpoche they share the same monastery from past lives, several incarnations, and they’ve been, sharing the same retreat centers and, main temple with monks and, um. Lay people, in caves and, and so forth, but was, one you may know from his biography in English called, freedom in Bondage.
he was in concentration camp and survived. He was there for 21 years, uh, altogether, and, no bitterness, uh, which is, very, remarkable in itself. He said, everyone [00:03:00] experience according to the own karma even people who are in the same concentration camp.
Some suffered, horribly. Some suffer less. Within in the same conditions. And you cannot blame that on the, the setting. It’s the individual, karmic makeup that, decides that. But when he, taught, I been, fortunate to receive teachings, uh, several times, but you never knew when he was finished.
Because he would just say a, a sentence later. In hindsight, it turns out to be the last sentence, but you didn’t know. He would just keep sitting like this. And we were sitting there and then, but we, we don’t dare to say. And then so we just also keep quiet. He also keep quiet and then nothing happens for a long while.
And then. You figure out, you can ask another question if you’re dare. [00:04:00] ’cause his, silence is kind of, um, thunderous, but very mild. at the same time, I usually Pull him out as the example of a real saint in the classical sense Catholic type.
’cause he is a saintly person very, uh, remarkable in memory. He knew where everything was in every text, all these things. Where everything is in the world. no mixing up anything. And that at the, in the middle of all that, he could be, unmoved, unswayed, by circumstance. So that’s a, a type person that really come to mind as a remarkable presence.
Mild and, Totally unruffled and yet, very, very, wise at the same time. But then there are so [00:05:00] many masters I, I’ve met, I, I dunno, Tulku Urgyen was, also, extraordinary. But I didn’t know that, at first I met him first while he was, correcting, calligraphy on the walls in the main temple in his big monastery in Bodhinath, which is now headed by Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche.
And I thought he was just an artist. And the next time I saw him, he was, making a sculpture of the, female, wisdom dakini, Tseringma, the goddess of Long Life. And he, he made it, out of thin air. As if he, he could already see, uh, the form of Tseringma he just, added the clay. the clay was, um, beaten with, cotton wool.
it was like [00:06:00] reinforced. And the purpose of putting cotton wool in the clay is so that it doesn’t crack. And like big cracks, small hairline cracks of course, but then you easy to smooth out with wet, clay. And then -. So he, he would just have the, clay already prepared and then he would put first the.
Snow lion and then her leg, and then her torso and like that. And I was just stunned by the, his ability. He didn’t use a drawing, he didn’t use a proportion, scale or anything. He just, kept adding pieces un until it was perfect and, um. It was like it already existed in his, uh, mind and he all, all he had to do was, uh, add the clay to fill it out like that.
So it was definitely a master sculpture and I found out. [00:07:00] Then the third time I met him was for saying goodbye Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche said, you have to say goodbye to my father. So I thought, uh, all right. He, he’s the teacher and the Abbot, but he must, love his father because, usually I don’t say goodbye to the, to the entire family.
And when I, I visit a Lama, so I’d been to other places, but, so that was the first time where I had to say goodbye to his father also. I’d seen his mother, she was, cook and manager, it seemed to me at that time. But then when I, I saw his father was like, a Lama He had different clothes on that time.
And now he was wearing, um, a red uh, skirt. Not a monk skirt, but, um, wrap around like this one. And he was, um. giving, um, some directions to n Nepali, worker, the head of the builders in the monastery. So I came, over [00:08:00] with my, my humble little white scarf. And I bent down to receive his blessing, and then nothing happened.
And then I, I looked up and he had also bent, his head down. So we were like facing each other like two, bulls, no, not about to attack, but, so then I move a little closer so that he could, um. I touch my head, but, he didn’t. So I moved even more closer. And then we bumped head ’cause he had also bowed down.
And, um, I found that he, he did that to everyone . So I was totally stunned by that sense of, um, respect for everyone that he demonstrated ’cause for him, every person was, worthy of respect.
And veneration. later on over the years, I came to understand his, his, uh, view. And his, uh, teaching was exactly like that respect for everyone because of acknowledging the deepest [00:09:00] in each person There was no sense of superiority and, um. I am a, a high master and you are not that kind of, um, denigration of, another person.
I never witnessed that even for a moment. You, you know, sometimes people, if they’re teachers, they may, uh, be a little full of themself. And, um, believing that they are something because of the title or, uh, years of practice or, the book knowledge. But even though he was, uh, incredibly learned and realized he never put himself above, anyone else, even when he gave, empowerment, he would, he would usually sit same level.
Which was, um, unusual, but when he gave empowerment to the Regents of the 16 Karmapa, [00:10:00] he insisted that they should sit higher than him, but he would just lift his his hand up. So that the water would flow down, uh, on their head or in their hand, but he didn’t wanna sit higher. ’cause in where he came from, that would be incredibly, um, rude.
if you sit higher than the, the dignitaries from the the tops of, of the four schools. So he didn’t want to do that. But otherwise it was always same level. Same level. And when I, over the years when I translated for him, I would sit and he, he would sit, um. In his meditation box, and I would sit on the bench, but right next to him, same level.
It wasn’t that, I was special. Uh, not at all. But, everyone was special like that. And that I found was a, a very, very extraordinary, [00:11:00] very extraordinary. But you’ll find that, attitude of, of realization in all his teachings, like that. Never, that you have to progress in order to have Buddha Nature for him.
Everyone has, or, more accurately everyone is. It’s not that you have a Buddha nature and then there’s you as an owner of that. Uh, it is not like that. Everyone is the awakened essence in the form that they now have and whether they know it or not. It’s a different matter.
All his sons they embodied that, understanding in their own ways. But Tulku Urgyen was incredibly humble not in a um, artificial [00:12:00] sense. Of, um, playing, uh, the person with humility. he was not, uh, acting, he was just, respecting the, timeless, nature in everyone, which is something that is hard to, forget, hard to forget.
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche is very different. And Karmapa is radically different. He would move through, people not just a king, but as an emperor and, every, one in the room. Both in the sense of Dilgo Khyentse or Karmapa everyone would bow their heads, whether they were Buddhist or not, didn’t matter. They could not, just remain.
They would, uh, join the, their palms and they would bend their, their neck. And, uh, ’cause they could see, visibly both the Karmapa, and Dilgo Khyentse there was someone really, [00:13:00] uh, unique and dignified and, supreme above everyone. But Tulku Urgyen could move through a crowd in an airport and nobody would notice he could be invisible very easily.
So people, meaning masters, they are different. They’re not all the same
Olivia: and did Tulku Urgyen, ‘ cause you were with him as a translator for so many years and you’ve said how many times he gave pointing out the nature of somebody’s mind instruction. And was there something regularly he turned to, to express that? I imagine he had many methods, but any that for you were particularly illuminating where you noticed a very strong shift in your understanding of reality?
Erik: Now this is a public talk, so I can’t say everything here, [00:14:00] but one of the main thing he would, ask people at the beginning was to pay attention to, the quality of space, spaciousness. ’cause that is like a entrance door or a stepping stone to beginning to understand, buddha nature. We have to, know what space is.
as, uh, the fifth, element among the five, elements, earth, water, fire, wind. Then there is space, which is, in our human society. The, main metaphor for mind or e even the nature of mind. also, so to understand spaciousness as a non thing. A non thing means not a physical thing, not even a, composite phenomenon.
S pace [00:15:00] defies all description in the sense of how it is made, how it comes about, and how it vanishes again. ’cause space is not made and does not vanish. So to begin to understand this, quality of space that is, is not a thing. It does not arise and it does not cease That, uh, was something he would spend time on.
And, um, dependent upon whether people were new or at so-called, I’m waving my fingers, quote unquote, advanced practitioners would make no difference because many people who have been practicing for years, they will still falter and, um, answer in the wrong way when it comes to just this simple thing.
Describe space, so that’s why I’ll mention it here. I said people need to, before they get too high on, um, on [00:16:00] Dzogchen or Mahamudra understand space, just ordinary, simple space. As not a thing. And, uh, does not arise and does not cease. We grow accustomed to sensing the. The dimension within which everything appear and disappear, just like clouds in the sky.
They appear and they disappear, but sky does not appear and disappear. So to make that distinction between things and none thing is very important part of meditation practice. Before he would even begin to give teaching, he would have people, spend time on finding out exactly what is space like. Because based on that, then he could give teachings afterwards.
If one hasn’t understood how space is, then it’s difficult to understand. Then one would think that is it [00:17:00] rigpa, ordinary mind, in mahamudra or prajnaparamita is a thing that you either have or you don’t have. And if you don’t have it and you want to get it, so to kind of eliminate that, from the beginning and he would, uh, emphasize space.
Olivia: And did you listen to Dilgo Khyentse ever give teachings on nature of mind? And, were they similar or different styles?
Erik: Um, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche would speak as if he was writing a book the perfect, Sentences that people could just write them down and, uh, all they needed was a title and then, signature.
It was perfect mahapandita. Uh whether it was general Mayana or the general teachings of the Buddha, whether it was specific, Vajrayana or whether it was the highest teachings. on the [00:18:00] great perfection, he had perfect, sentence structure and not, extraneous blabbering.
It was none, none of that. He was, um, very much a quality of Buddha teaching.
simply perfect. I received teachings on, uh, the Lamp to Dispel Darkness, the same as Tsokyni Rinpoche taught here from Dilgo Khyentse, and somebody later wrote it down exactly as he spoke and it was a perfect book in many, uh, instances, like that. It was sometimes more easy for people to write down from his tape than to, copy his handwriting because as he was old, his his hands shook a little, so not everybody could read his handwriting.
Only a few people were really, Not only educated, but familiar with his, writing style that could do that. But when you wrote from tapes, he was just [00:19:00] perfect. When he was younger. He could write anything a huge length and detail, no filling, no nonsense. Uh, just like a, perfect master of the past.
I compared some of his, writings with that of Jamgon Kongtrul and the first Khyentse, and there is absolutely no difference in the perfection. Dilgo Khyentse was a, an extraordinary, enlightened, author. And none like that uh, these days where people write something and then they correct it and then even you use artificial intelligence to correct your style or, spelling and uh, stuff like that.
There’s nobody like that. Matthieu Ricard said that his father, when he would write something, would sit for a while and then write a sentence. But never any corrections. It was just, perfect. Like that.
Tulku Urgyen never wrote [00:20:00] anything. Even the text we have here called the Ultimate Guru Sadhana of Simplicity, he didn’t write it. He dictated it. And I have another piece that he dictated, but that’s about it. I never seen him write anything, not even letters. He, his hands really like that. He would hold a rosary sometimes, but whether he said a mantra or not, I don’t know.
If we asked him, he would say it was Om Mani Padme Hung, but you never know. Maybe, maybe it was just ah, ah, ah, would be impossible to find out.
Olivia: You’ve spoken about the fact that he had no process, that he just understood naturally the nature of reality, and what do you attribute that to?
Erik: [00:21:00] Former training. That’s how it is for all of us. Former training is incredibly important. And right now we are doing formal training for the future. So what we understand now and what we could settle into will make it so that, uh, later on we either in this body or in another body, it’s so easy to just be.
So that’s why practice is not only for this life. You hear me. Practice is not only for this life. And the people who say we only live once, they are, uh, ignorant. The mind does not die. So it’s not mind is reborn. It, it doesn’t happen. but a new, biological, you can say cocoon is spun, like a tapestry is spun around the mind, which is not [00:22:00] only, Something called mind, but it’s Buddha nature, which expresses itself either as a dualistic, set up or as Buddha nature’s, uh, natural radiance. And what the proportion or the percentages, whether it’s one or the other, that we don’t know. If it’s more Buddha Nature just expressing itself in a new biological structure, then it’s called, Tulku.
And if it’s mainly confusion, then it’s called rebirth. So former training makes the difference ‘ because a real training is to separate dualistic mind from, the radiance of, Buddha nature so that it’s, more one type which we call pure, and the other called impure. Actually pure, it, pure is not the real word for it.
It’s more mistaken or unmistaken. That’s, uh, the meaning of pure [00:23:00] and Im pure, cannot wash it, and then it becomes clean. But to be, unmistaken through insight , stabilized into realization, how did we get into this topic? Oh yeah. How Tulku Urgyen was like that. He was just naturally confident and, uh, that is rooted in realization.
Where did the realization come from? You have to say former train, but how long former we, we don’t know his previous life as you have possibly read in, Blazing Splendor was a great yogi called, Chowang Tul ku or Chowang Rinpoche, who was, um, extraordinary and his formal life. You never know exactly who they were.
I heard, uh, that, uh. He was, [00:24:00] uh, incarnation of, uh, Guru Chowang, one of the, five or eight major treasure revealers. who wrote down a thick tantra, one of the, Dzogchen tantras that was just coming through him. Not that he composed it, but it came through him and it landed in, a form with a paper and, with ink.
And it exists today.
It’s a, big Dzogchen tantra on simplicity with many chapters.
Dzogchen tantras are like, a script or manuscript for a theater piece. There’s a setting, then they’re the actors, and then one speak, and another speak. And it’s, uh, most of the tantras are like conversation mainly by the chief, figure, which was the, center of the mandala. But the other, uh, uh, actors, they are emanations of the chief figure.
So it’s all a play, [00:25:00] ay that is what is called, tantra with teachings that are meant for, future recipients, meaning future, audience of that, theater piece. That’s a extraordinary many Sutras are like that also. Conversations between enlightened beings,
extraordinary, literature. Not like normal playwrights who try to get some wisdom through or some understanding of how human nature, uh, human dilemma. unfolds, which is very, very, very good. But, Sutras and Tantras are extraordinary, extraordinary literature in the crown jewels of literature in this world.
And Tulku Urgyen past life was a revealer of that. There’s not much, existing from his life under the name Guru Chowang. But, uh, some texts are there. [00:26:00] There’s also, um, play called, Tshechu Tenth Day Dance with Padmasambhava and the Eight Manifestations and, many, places they perform that on, um, a particular day of the year
where a man has the mask of Padmasambhava and others have the, general eight manifestations you see here in the back wall. And I was present one time in, uh, Oregon when students of Chagdud Rinpoche had that, uh, enacted.
Olivia: You’ve also spent time with Chatral Sangye Dorje?
Not much. Not much. No. Okay.
Erik: I only met him on maybe, uh, a dozen occasions. But I never received teachings from him. He, I only asked some things and he said, uh, uh, do it or don’t, things like that. Mm-hmm. He was very, uh, [00:27:00] resolute and, um, very unusual person, character.
Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche once said, Chatral Rinpoche doesn’t need to teach. He just need to be in the world. That, to have someone like that and that will, uh, put a scare in two thousands of people, they will, uh, not dare to, uh, do what they otherwise would, would, would like to do because he’s still -.
Olivia: Would you speak on the significance of enlightened beings and their beingness, like the power of them being in the world. The other day, Rinpoche was talking about how so many people in the world feel like the need to be active outwardly and forget the significance of, being an enlightened being or cultivating those qualities and that it actually.
Has benefit for the world. what is your experience or thoughts on [00:28:00]
Erik: this? We just have to keep an open mind about that.
Olivia: Yeah.
Erik: Uh, Great Bodhisattvas. They act in all different ways, and then they don’t have the code of ethics that, uh, belongs to Theravada Hinayana. Then we had to be very open-minded. And some are, act like a very normal, some act like crazy.
Some act like business people, some as slaughterers as a absolutely no fixed mode of conduct for a great Bodhisattva. So the general rule is don’t judge. If you don’t know the person, then don’t say anything. It’s much more safe because there’s an, unhappy, consequence of denigrating a [00:29:00] Bodhisattva. I can tell you a story about that.
It was, uh, one, student of Lama -, with a big white beard, but he, he was brought up, uh, in his education when he was younger at, uh, Trulshik Rinpoche’s place in, in Tibet. It was before the cultural revolution. And he, he did his, um. ngondro and, um, the chants and the recitations, all that, and then he was finally allowed in that system to request the pointing out instruction and Trulshik Rinpoche gave him, uh, the teaching and then he just didn’t get it.
It was like, uh, there was a clap down and he, he just couldn’t, open his mind to be receptive to that. So he request it again. And he did more, purification practices and still he [00:30:00] couldn’t, and Trulshik Rinpoche said, I. Know how to teach this. I’ve done, my stuff and you are not getting it, so there’s something wrong with you.
And Trulkshik Rinpoche was also clairvoyant. So, at some point he said, you must have, uh, defamed or slandered a great Bodhisattva. So think about what time in your past you have done that. So the Lama uh, his name was Samten, Lama Samten. He thought about it and he couldn’t think, no, I never did. Slander a body suffer not possible.
And Trulshik Rinpoche said, think again. You don’t have to rush it. Just go to your, uh, heart and, uh, think it through. And then, Lama Samten, he went back and, and he remembered it. When, while he was a businessman [00:31:00] in, in old there were no big roads. This is all the trails, narrow trails, either on the plain or in the mountainside and. If it’s a a, a plane, you can easy to pass another businessman’s yak train. Like many yaks, uh, they follow the lead yak and they just walk behind and that’s it. And you don’t have to tell them the way they know the way.
The lead yak has gone this trail many times, and if he dies, then the second one will take over. And, and, and they know the way that, you don’t have to, uh, whip them or, uh, anything like that. Uh, yaks are much more, clever and, have much wider perspective. They’ll often stop up and look around and they’ll then, they’ll know where to go.
So two yak trains, came in from different directions, Lama Samten. At that time, he wasn’t a lama, he was a, a businessman, was facing, another, [00:32:00] uh, and the road was too, narrow so they couldn’t pass each other. And his yaks, they got a little scattered over the mountainside.
often when you are a business person, you, invest everything you have. In, in the goods, uh, so that you can make a, a bigger profit. So he was, uh, upset, rightfully so. And it showed out that the, other, yak train or string of yas could be several hundred. Eh, all with full load, they can carry, um, maybe 70, a hundred kilo each.
they don’t just want to go another way if they don’t have to. So he said those damn Kagyu lamas, who just think they can, chase away anybody else as if they had first right for of, everything. That was all he had said. And it turned out it was Karmapa’s.
labrang, it means monastic institution who’s the owner of the, the, competing, uh, string of, yaks. He didn’t know, the [00:33:00] Karmapa but he just cursed whoever it was to whom they belonged, and that was it. so he went back to and which said, yeah, that was probably it. Now you have to apologize to the 16th.
Karmapa in person, not just to apology from afar, Om Benza Sattva Ah like that. You have to. walk all the way to – and then, ask permission to apologize, to the Karmapa, in person. All right. He set out to do that. He, uh, walked all the way. I don’t know where he lived, but, Trulshik Rinpoche’s place in Tibet was just behind Mount Everest and, the Karmapa’s was, uh, near Lhasa.
So in those days there were no cars. So it would probably take, one or two months, to walk there. He did that and he, Came, before the Karmapa, the Karmapa was walking out somewhere. So he threw [00:34:00] himself on the ground and, uh, took hold of his foot. And the, the Karmapa said, let go. And kind of tried to shake loose, but, Lama Samten was very, sincere about this. So he held on. So finally the Karmapa said, okay, what’s your problem? What do you want? And, uh, he said, I have, um, slandered you, with the sentence, and I’m really sorry. And then the, Karmapa said Okay, it’s over.
That was it. And then when he went back to Trulshik Rinpoche and, and. received the teaching at pointing out instruction again. He recognized the, nature of mind immediately. That was all it took. So I’m sure many of you may have slandered. some Bodhisattvas so. Better, clear it up as fast as you can if you want to, to train in dzogchen, because sometimes it is possible that we think we got it, but we [00:35:00] didn’t really get it, and then the years go by.
So that could be some, haze or fog, uh, in our minds that need to be, cleared up. if you can’t do it now in person, then at least, make a decision never to slander anyone who may be an incarnated Bodhisattva. ’cause why should we?
But again, sometimes you just can’t help it. And also somebody, others are misbehaving, in order to get slandered, so, so that people can have a connection. We don’t know.
Olivia: So does that mean to try to not slander anybody because anyone can be a Bodhisattva?
Erik: That’s the hidden meaning in, in that story.
but even if you slander a Bodhisattva, you have created a karmic link to that person. So you will definitely meet and, uh, receive guidance on the path at some point, but may, it’s a longer [00:36:00] path, not slandering, it’s a quicker path.
But it may not be in human form.
When the 16th Karmapa was a very young, he had a servant called Yonta, Yonta, Y-O-N-T-A, was an old person and he died. And the Karmapa was traveling from Tsurphu to, uh, a Kham which lies to the east of of Tibet. It’s counted among greater Tibet, but uh, actually it’s its own kingdoms. There’s Amdo, Derge Nangchen, and, and each have their own king. So they were never considered part of Tibet, but they spoke and, and read, uh, I wouldn’t say they spoke to Ben because dialect is very heavy, but they have the same script.
Exactly the same scriptures and, um, the old servant had [00:37:00] died and while they were traveling through, the valley and along the river, there’s a side valleys going up. And then at one side Valley, the young Karmapa said, I want to go up this valley. And, uh, his, secretaries and, um, like ministers, cause Karmapa was like a king.
He said, no, we are not going that way. We are going the straight way. ’cause we are going somewhere in particular, the Karmapa was, uh, very, regal. And he didn’t take no for an answer if he wanted to do something, he, he did it. So he say, I’m going that way. You can go wherever you want. So then they all followed of course.
which was a big deal. ’cause there could be like, many hundred of people on horse. And, um, huge number of yaks also. So they came up a, a valley and after a few hours there was a, a shepherd with a lot of sheep. And, um, Karmapa He just yelled out Yonta and then one little sheep, he [00:38:00] broke out from the flock and ran straight towards him and jumped, into his lap.
And he said, I want to buy, this, little sheep lamb, and then ask the shepherd for the price and I’ll pay it. The Shepherd would say, no, I don’t want money. I’ll be happy to give, but the Karmapa and said, no, I insist on paying cause he’s mine. then he told his, attendants, that this is, Yonta.
Unfortunately, he, um, became a sheep this time around. so now he’s, back. Uh, and we should take care of him for as long as he live. He shouldn’t be eaten, even though, they like to eat, a lamb. But usually, uh, young lamb, they not never killed. They, they die in the winter by the freezing cold, and then they’re freeze dried so, and then eaten, but Yonta back to the Karmapa And also Choyi Nyima Rinpoche he said, many years later, I have many people who are my followers.[00:39:00]
And who have a dharma connection. And they will not all be reborn as human beings next time. I know they misbehave and they have wrong views and like that, so, but they will always come back to me in, in some way, especially when they die, for a few moments if they have, a clean connection even though they
did this and that. They’ll come before me and, uh, I can, help them to be liberated at that moment.
But, many of my followers will be reborn in the, in the lower realms.
That’s food for thought. You hear me out there? It’s not enough to be a follower of a great master. It’s not enough.
I hear it also, it’s not enough. So what is enough? What is necessary? The two accumulations. The accumulation of merit and the accumulation of moments of wisdom, which means [00:40:00] moments of, timeless wakefulness.
Those are two sure things, the accumulation of merit. Which is not physical. It doesn’t mean to give, gifts to, to the Buddhas or bow down and other forms of worship. That’s not the accumulation of merit. It’s the attitude with which, uh, those spiritual activities are being done. Otherwise, it’s just movements.
And shuffling things. The, the accumulation of merit is not in the bowing down, but it’s the attitude of surrendering the, self-centered attitude that is what is called, merit.
And that is accompanied by physical action of prostration. And hopefully the attitude behind that is, uh, surrendering the root causes of samsara [00:41:00] while prostrating, that is how it’s supposed to be. And then it’s the accumulation of merit, the accumulation of, wisdom is, uh, many, many moments. Of acknowledging or accepting, whether it’s according to, Mahayana, Prajnaparamita, Mahamudra, or Dzogchen, doesn’t matter, but acknowledging the timeless, pure quality that is the basis of every moment of consciousness to, to acknowledge or accept, recognize that is is called the accumulation of wisdom.
And
that is not an action, that is an action of surrender, but it, that’s only a moment, and next moment can be, long while, or it can be short. That is never sure depends on the power of a former training.
But many, many moments like that is called the accumulation of wisdom. [00:42:00] And Tulku Urgyen he always said like collecting water drops from the eve of the roof. And how is the barrel filled with water with rain water?
The accumulation of wisdom is drop by a drop.
It’s not like instantaneous, enlightenment, which possibly is a little bit fiction. Sounds good.
But the, the real, instantaneous enlightenment is. A moment at a time. A drop at a time.
Instantaneous, yes. But still you need more in order to have a lot of water in the barrel.
And that’s very different from just sitting and waiting in a uncomfortable physical posture and hoping that it’s over and that something will happen at some point. That’s not called the accumulation of wisdom. That could easily be the accumulation of ignorance.
But there’s [00:43:00] no other choice. If one doesn’t have the right karma, one doesn’t meet even, um, an ordinary person who can point the right way one only imitate the form of culture like a garden Buddha. How the garden Buddha sits and tries to sit like that. Uh, try to be, the memory of some, acid trip long ago where everything was so easy and natural.
But, uh, these days it doesn’t come so easily. It’s days have gone by. Years have gone by. So we, we, what we need is a living. guide, a living teacher, that’s extremely important. ’cause the words in the book can be twisted so easily to conform with one’s own preconceived ideas. So it’s much more, not only practical, but effective to meet with a living master who’s a carrier [00:44:00] of a.
An authentic lineage of realization that is what is important, but not just meet, but to, uh, receive the substance of that, lineage of realization. And in order for that to happen is not easy. Many people don’t want to travel. They wanna wait until he or she comes to my town. I shouldn’t be, uh. Getting off my comfortable butt so that could take many years
or lifetimes
and by the time we then, uh, have the luck to meet someone, we may not be human. It’s not certain that just because we are human in this life that we will also be a human body in the next time around. That’s not sure,
but we will for sure be somewhere among the six realms that’s guaranteed.
Olivia: So when you spent all of this time alongside Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, or [00:45:00] how did you on a daily basis integrate the amount of just the teachings that he was giving and, the experiences you were having so that you would be able to have more karmic ripening of your timeless nature or understanding of it?
Erik: That is, um, not easy to answer.
Most of the of my time was spent trying to avoid, um, the timeless nature. So there’s not much to talk about there.
That’s just, uh, how life is Yeah. For making up projects and. Running away from, uh, the present moment in all different ways. Mm-hmm. Which you, the listener you have mastered that as well, so I don’t have to talk about that.
What we need to, is to turn it around and, um, teach this mind to have new habits and that it can begin, Every, [00:46:00] time we stop up and, have a little sense that what I’m, uh, running after blindly here makes no sense. So what makes sense? That you don’t have to hear from a, a teacher, a Buddhist teacher, anyone else.
You have to, make up your own mind what makes sense in this life. and then seek that, that is the beginning of any path. It doesn’t start with meeting a, a great master, which we won’t have the karma to meet unless we have a, answered with sincerely and with honesty. This question of what makes really sense to use human life on and then seek that, decide to find that. That comes before any, spiritual teaching is to, uh, use your own intelligence.
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