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Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron is a Buddhist teacher and Dharma practitioner, the executive director for Saraswati Bhawan, and she also oversees Saraswati Publications, translations, and the Phurba Peace Mandala Project International.
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:08 Stages towards authentic devotion
00:09:40 Karmic guru connection
00:12:00 Blessings
00:16:00 Ideal student qualities
00:20:00 Living lineage
00:25:00 Dharma protectors
00:29:00 Samaya
00:33:00 Divisive Speech
00:35:00 Root guru
00:41:00 Dudjom Rinpoche and Lama Dawa Rinpoche
00:43:00 When to fully depend on a teacher
00:44:00 Cult behavior
00:46:00 Student’s personal work
00:48:00 Sleep, wakefulness, and Lama Dawa
00:52:00 Signs of maturing on the path of realization
00:53:00 Biggest obstacle for westerners
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Links:
Khandro Kunzang & the P’hurba Peace Mandala Project
https://www.phurbathinleyling.org/the-peace-mandala-project/
Listen to previous episodes with Khandro Kunzang:
Vajrakilaya, Guru Rinpoche Prophecies & the Mandala Principle
Elemental Spirits, Vajra Armor & Dharma Marriage
Lineage of Oral Instruction, Real Teachers & Himalayan Yogas of Tsa lung and Tummo
Cultivating Siddhis, Tukdam, Lineage Protection & Consortship
Rough transcript (please excuse all errors)
[00:00:00] my name is Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. Today our guest is Khandro Kunzang Dechen Chodron Khandro Kunzang is a Buddhist teacher and Dharma practitioner, the executive director for Saraswati Bhawan, and she also oversees Saraswati Publications, translations, and the Phurba Peace Mandala Project International. Khandro Kunzang has been a guest before on Love and Liberation.
Olivia : You can visit the episode notes to listen to these previous conversations.
Thank you so much again for meeting today.
Khandro Kunzang : Oh, you’re very welcome.
Olivia : So I thought we could start with a very general question.
from a [00:01:00] Buddhist tantric perspective, what is needed for a student of reality, like AKA Dharma practitioner to be available for realization? Like how does, what does one need to be able to ripen one’s mind towards realization?
Khandro Kunzang : Yeah. Well, I think this is where the, the devotion aspect comes in, right? Which is kind of a tricky word. For Westerners, you know, so there, there has to be this, getting familiar, like the student has to get familiar with the teachings. And a teacher. There’s always a period of time where you’re getting to know each other and building trust.
You know, I, I think some of the best descriptions for devotion are trust and respect. Then that has to come from within, right? It, you know, of course in, you know, in all the literature it talks about devotion, devotion, devotion. But that’s something that one gradually arrives at. It’s, [00:02:00] it’s rare. It can happen that you will feel a, a devotion upon just meeting someone, but that’s if you have an extraordinary karmic connection.
That unshakeable faith and devotion is there from the beginning. That’s the exception rather than the rule. Right? So there is this period of time where the, the student is getting to know the teacher and the teacher’s getting to know the student. It is a two-way relationship. You know, in the literature we’ll describe like these, these different phases and levels of growing into what is the, the authentic devotion.
And Lama Dawa often referred to them as liking devotion, wishing devotion, and then confident devotion, right? So liking devotion is that first attraction that we feel to the teachings or a teacher because there was something about it that appealed to us, or [00:03:00] they’re speaking our language, oh, or that I really resonate with that, or I like the way this teacher presents that, or, you know, this teaching really intrigues me and we want to know more, right?
So there’s this, this liking, attraction, appealing, and then we spend some time with it. Then that sort of evolves to what he would call the wishing devotion, which is where you, I wanna be like that person, right? I, I want to have those qualities. I aspire to have those qualities, right? And this, you know, of course we, we have to learn what those qualities are of the teacher.
Um, but we have gotten to know the teacher enough to, um, observe them. And then we start to gain respect for them. Like we respect the teacher. We like what they stand for, they are consistent with the [00:04:00] teachings, all this kind of thing. And we, we want to be like that. So we want to emulate them, we want to be like them.
And then that evolves or should mature into confident devotion where you have unshakeable faith. So you have faith, you have respect. You have trust and that takes time to build, right? And so when when you have that, then you’re receptive, right? So it’s really about being receptive. Receptive to the teachings, receptive to instruction, receptive to the blessings, right?
So there’s a sort of intangible aspect of dharma, of receiving blessings empowerments. So this receptivity and being receptive to the instruction of the teacher, and even correction of a teacher, right? And once you start developing this relationship of trust, and the teacher becomes more invested in you because they have also developed this [00:05:00] trust towards you, you know, then there comes a time when you know you may be reprimanded or you may be corrected.
And if you don’t have devotion, if you haven’t developed that. Receptivity and trust you. You know, you won’t, you won’t take it in the right way like this. Um, so yeah, so there’s these stages to go through. So that one is receptive to the teachings and the teacher. And of course in the beginning we’re all learning, you know, we have to learn about dharma and we have to hear many teachings.
And there’s a lot of things to learn. There’s a lot of philosophical doctrine that we have to try to understand as westerners. Some things may contradict with the things that we thought were true about life, you know, so there is a period of, of learning that’s sort of an in general sense. Um, but the devotion even has to be there for that like devotion to the dharma, devotion to the teachings, [00:06:00] right?
That which is being open and receptive. And if it, and if something sort of. You know, you hear something and it causes like, what, what is that? That I don’t get that, or I don’t agree with that. The ability to sort of pause and say, okay, well, hmm, let me sit with this and let me reflect on this because I’ve, I’ve gotta check this out and this is what we have to do.
We have to investigate this to see, is that true? Or maybe I’m just bumping up against a limiting belief system in myself. Right? So this ability to self-reflect, this ability to have the capacity to do this inquiry of oneself, right? This kind of, sort of self-reflection because. You know, practicing dharma means we’re gonna be transforming our mind, right?
We’re gonna be transforming our mind, and we’re going to be faced with these challenges to belief systems or identity, or what we thought was true. It should challenge those. At some point, we’re gonna [00:07:00] get to these challenge, whether it’s doctrinal challenge or it’s the teachers challenging you, maybe nudging you and pushing you to sort of go beyond your fears or something like this.
You know, sometimes we, we have these inner limitations, so that’s, you know, dharma’s all about overcoming this and, going beyond our limitations to be liberated, to be free of those conditioned responses, right? So, so I think a combination of this, uh, capacity of self-reflection and the wanting to grow.
Wanting to evolve. I mean, I guess that’s what brings us to the dharma in the first place. We have this idea of enlightenment. How do we get there? So there’s this wish to go on this quest, and then there’s this re being receptive and open to the teachings and, the teacher. Then we get personal with the teacher and we, you know, we investigate the teacher’s qualities [00:08:00] and find the teacher that we can trust and then the relationship can grow from there.
And then, and then comes the practice. And so I think the devotion, when you get to confident devotion, it’s a result of having experiences as a result of the practices. You do the practices and then you feel the results of the practices. Then your devotion grows not only in the teachings, but the teacher who gave you those practices and told you, you have to do it like this, or you have to do it like that, and then you start to feel some inner benefit or inner growth or some transformation or whatever that is for you, where you feel like you’re moving on the path that gives, right.
That has to be there. I think we cannot arrive at that confident devotion without having then more and more experiences. And the ultimate one, of course is the experience of being introduced to the nature of your own mind and having confidence in that, [00:09:00] right? So that’s sort of like the pinnacle, but that comes with this gradual, developing trust and with that comes respect.
Right? So yeah, I think those are, those are sort of in a nutshell what is required of a a serious student, somebody who wants to seriously embark on who’s decided they want to follow the path of the Dharma.
Olivia : Mm. And how about for you? So with, Lama Dawa and Kunzang Dorje, what was your, experience of devotion?
Were either of them gradual or either of, it sounded like Kunzang Dorje was quite quick
Khandro Kunzang : yeah. And so was Lama Dawa.
and it’s extraordinary karmic connection. Right. And so when I first met Lama Dawa, there was just, you know, a voice in me that just said, you know, with this man, enlightenment is in my hand.
And I just wanted to be with him. I was a nun. It wasn’t a, a romantic thing, it was just like, I need to be with him [00:10:00] here. I, you know, and I invited him to come to Maryland, you know, I was like, I have to in, ’cause I was living in Maryland at the time, and this was in Oregon, the complete opposite end of the United States.
And I had to go back to Maryland and I was like, I have to invite him. You know, so I pushed past my shyness or, you know, I’m being too forward or he’ll never agree. All those kind of things. Uhuh, I have to do this. And, and it surprised me when he agreed to come. Right. So, and of course he was also recognizing the connection.
He had more. conscious understanding of the connection. I just felt compelled. There was like, I felt compelled I have to be with him. And I was at that time on my way making changes in my life to move to Arizona, to be with Garchen Rinpoche. I was in a transitional place, you know, and then I didn’t expect to meet this Lama Dawa know, and then it was just like, I have to be with him.
He [00:11:00] has what I am looking for. There was something about that, that, that’s irrational. I mean, it’s something that can only come from a very strong karma connection. In retrospect, it’s very easy for me to say this, right? But at the time it just turned my world upside down. but I just knew I had to do this.
So I, think that’s the exception rather than the rule. But it’s because we had this very close personal connection. And then Lama Dawa brought me to meet his teacher. Who, when I saw a picture of him, I thought, yeah, I, I’m going to meet him. And then when I first met him, there was this instant sort of, time space collapse recognition.
Something was recognizing, although I wasn’t conscious of what the recognition was, he was, he specifically knew who I was in my past life. He was a young man and he had met me like, so there was this very, [00:12:00] very close personal connection. you know, and that’s called meeting your karmic guru. you know, otherwise we’ll meet a Lama who may be in the lineage that we’ve practiced in past lives, and we feel this instant, like, this makes sense to me. Or, you know, this kind of resonance. may not necessarily be that kind of personal connection, but you’re in the lineage or, you know, it may be a little more distant, but that instant sort of liking, devotion, wanting to be there, wanting more, and taking those steps to pursue that are definitely there.
Mm.
Olivia : And will you talk about, so you mentioned blessing before and it’s obviously a very common term. Uh, and what is a blessing exactly, and, and what makes blessing significant on the path?
Khandro Kunzang : Yeah. Well, blessings are, can be kind of looked at in a couple ways, you know, from a, from the [00:13:00] perspective of ordinary mind.
A blessing is when the energy, collective energy of a lineage that comes through your teacher and comes through the practice descends and you, you receive this. It’s, it’s an energetic, exchange, or that’s the experience of it. Something enters in and, causes this profound shift in your awareness and consciousness, right?
So you, you, you could enter into a meditative state as a result of this blessing, you know, or you feel something washing over you or, it could have profound physical effect there are sensations in the body or, uh, effect of the mind.
Something opens in the mind, so it comes through lineage. Of, a long line of enlightened masters passed from one to another, another another. And then it’s like a field of energy that you have entered into, and it could be through the device [00:14:00] of empowerments, like we go receive empowerments from Lamas, and they’re bestowing these, Wong initiation, they’re embodying the deity of that lineage, and they’re giving these, you know, empowerments to you.
And if you’re receptive to that and you’re ripened for that, you can really feel a sense of transformation after that empowerment. And now you’re entered, now you’re initiated into that, field of practice. And another way of looking at it is, it’s, basically you’re, you’re getting introduced to your own nature that was always there.
It’s like they’re putting a mirror in front of your face and you’re like, oh, that’s, that’s what I
am.
So, um, because ultimately that is us, ultimately that is our Buddha nature. It’s like our Buddha nature looking right at us and we recognize that, you know, so that’s a maybe a higher level of blessing.
Blessing is this [00:15:00] recognition. Yeah.
And
it’s, it’s an important part of our ripening process, that’s why the vajrayana path can be a quick path because a lot of the work is done for us by virtue of blessings of a lineage can do, a lot of purification and a lot of removal of obstacles, removal of, mental constructs and, fears and belief systems can be washed away with blessings if we’re receptive to it.
Right? So, so it’s an important part of the vajrayana tradition
Olivia : What gets in the way of receiving blessings?
Khandro Kunzang : Well, doubt, fear and pride. I, I think those are the, especially pride, pride and arrogance.
there’s these, um, metaphors in the teachings about the qualities the students have to have, and they use this metaphor of pots. They of a, of an [00:16:00] upside down pot. A pot with holes in it, and a pot with poison in it. like what is the perfect student? Like, how, how can you become the perfect vessel?
you don’t wanna be the upside down pot, right? So an upside down pot means something is poured in and it just, it doesn’t go in right, it just goes off the side. And that’s pride. You know, that’s a, a, pride, arrogant, unre receptivity. You’re the upside down pot.
you’re not really teachable. An upside down pot. The profile of an upside down pot is a person who is a know-it-all. A person who knows better, who’s going to argue every point, or, you know, they’re just, they’re very difficult to teach. You know, this is a, a type that I notice my teachers really avoid students like this when they see this kind of unreceptivity due to pride and arrogance.
they don’t, you know, invest too much in those [00:17:00] students. And then there’s the pot that have holes in it, the leaky pot. So teachings go in and they just sort of leak out. They leak out because we forget or we’re careless, we weren’t paying attention or we’re not giving it care.
We don’t have this sort of discernment, you know, we’re just sort of. We’re blase about our practice, or, we, we wanna talk too much, right? We wanna talk about our practices and all the things that we’re doing. We just leak, leak, leak all over the place. And this is sort of like the metaphor of, you know, throwing pearls before swine kind of thing, So when teachers see this again teaching somebody like this becomes a waste of time, right? Because they’re just, they’re not gonna put the teachings into practice. The student who’s a leaky pot they don’t retain things, they don’t put effort into things. And then there’s the pot [00:18:00] with poison in it. So the pot with poison in it is a student who will get a lot of teachings and they will distort the teachings.
You know, or they will, the teacher will say something and teach something, and they will turn around and say something else that the teacher didn’t say. They don’t have the discernment to be very clear about this and that, or they conflate things, Or they’ll go off and, and mix the teachings with other things, right?
That’s the pot with poison in it. The idea is we don’t wanna be any of those to be the proper vessel where the teachings can be, can be poured in and we can hold it, contain it, not contaminate it, and then we can use those practices, we take them to heart, we internalize them, and eventually we embody them.
So those metaphors are used for, for [00:19:00] us as a guide, you know, I mean, I can think of times when I’ve been all three of those pots, you know? Mm-hmm. We, we do, there are times when we have a lot of pride or a lot of like, unre receptivity or times when we’re just not, you know, giving it our attention and being very loose, or times when we’re conflating things, you know?
So we, we have to be aware of that
Olivia : so you were also speaking about Lineage before, and of course Lineage ties with blessings as you mentioned, in a way, like you were saying, the lineage comes with all of these blessings, helps clear the karma for someone to receive and mm-hmm.
The idea of lineage can feel very counter to the modern tendency towards individuation, towards ideas of freedom, of like, you know, I wanna do what I want rather than what came before me. So would you speak about lineage and how Yeah, that’s,
that’s,
Khandro Kunzang : I mean, with Vajrayana Buddhism, it has to come, it comes from a [00:20:00] lineage, right?
I think of a lineage as. You know, a modern way to think of it is this theory that Rupert Sheldrake has of morphic resonance and Morphic fields. You know, we had some enlightened master of the past, radiating this enlightened brilliance, and then they have students, And, and then through time another one is enlightened and another one becomes enlightened. You know? So we have this sort of like carrying through time this enlightenment field, and it comes down to us in our time and space continuum. We are now in through a teacher who comes from this lineage, right?
So the, so the teacher’s like a, a vessel for a lineage to come through, and any. Authentic teacher of a lineage is always going to understand that they’re [00:21:00] representing this lineage, and there’s always somebody above them, you know, always, always, always. And so this is a, it’s a way for these blessings to travel through time to our, you know, current embodiment.
And so the, the Living embodied teacher. That’s in front of us is representing this whole lineage. So that’s why when we are taking refuge in the guru, the guru has these nine aspects. They’re the, they’re the three jewels and the three roots and the three kayas. It’s just like they embody this whole long line.
And so, you know, lineage is going to have a tried and true method, right? So, so we have confidence because we of course should learn about the great masters of our lineage. And now there’s a lot of wonderful biographies being translated into English that we can draw inspiration from how they practiced and how they practice going [00:22:00] all the way back.
If you’re in Nyingma, then all back to Guru Rinpoche like this. And reading these life stories and inspires us and also guides us on how. How we should be practicing. And so it’s sort of like the proof is in the pudding, right? We can be sure that if we practice as they did, there’s no reason why we can’t also achieve those same results.
Whereas if if there isn’t this lineage there and there’s a person, a self-realized person, there’s plenty of self-realized people, they have their path, they have their teaching, and they have their followers. You know, I don’t know. I might have a little bit of difficulty believing, you know, it, my skeptical mind wants to see, there’s proof that these practices are going
to result in what they say they will, and my teachers, my living teachers, [00:23:00] exemplified those qualities. the way Lama Dawa passed away and sat in tukdam and left relics. These are all the signs. It’s like there’s no doubt about the efficacy of the particular lineage that I’m following, right?
So it is very important because they’re tried and true methods that have been tested over time. And if they are still coming to us now in the 21st century, then they’re living like a lineage has to be alive. You know, lineages die when it’s just books and texts and scholars, but no yogis, right?
So the yogis who are doing the internal practices, they’re keeping the, the life breath of the lineage alive, right? Otherwise, it’s just something we can all talk about. Or a museum we can go and see, and thangkas and [00:24:00] statues, we can go visit right then. It’s not really alive. It’s like a, a living force that gets passed onto us.
Yeah. And of course, in today’s world, yeah, this thing about being independent, that’s, you know, that’s the pride thing, you know, that’s the pride. I know better. I’ll do it my way. I see people in Dharma that are like this. They, they go from here to there to this teacher, to that teacher getting this teaching and that teaching.
And they develop a lot of knowledge and they can talk a very good talk, but they don’t really have devotion. And as soon as a teacher tries to correct them, they run away. I don’t want, don’t tell me what to do. I’m gonna do it my way. I’ve seen this and, you know. They eventually crash and burn mostly, you know, because there, there isn’t the, the blessings aren’t there.
And the other thing about the lineages with [00:25:00] within Tibetan Buddhism is we have these dharma protectors, right? So that’s a, a huge part of these lineages are, as part of our refuge tree, when we’re, doing our refuge prayer to the lineages are the dharma protectors. And they’re tasked with protecting the lineage and those who practice within that lineage.
So when people are not practicing according to a lineage, they don’t have this protection and they don’t have this system of checks and balances. It’s the other thing about an authentic lineage is there’s a system of checks and balances. So when somebody starts to go astray, starts to develop, maybe wrong ideas, starts to bring in different ideas that aren’t in accordance with the teachings, there’s a system of checks and balances like or should be.
Olivia : Will you say more about that? The system of checks and balances? Well, it’s, you
know,
Khandro Kunzang : the correction that you would get, you know? Yeah. From a teacher. [00:26:00] From a teacher or from the Dharma, Paula. Well, that’s another kind of correction. Yes, the derma, Paulas will punish you, as they say, but it really means they, they won’t protect you, and so you’re more likely to experience a lot of misfortune.
This is what I have seen with people who are, you know, engaging in dharma practice. in vajrayana practice like this, who don’t have real devotion and who are gonna go and do it their way, eventually, they usually meet up with a lot of misfortune.
And devotion is the antidote to that. I mean, the quality of devotion means a kind of humility, right? There is the innate humility.
To be receptive like that, you have to have a, you have to be humble, right? That’s, that’s the respect aspect. You respect the teacher, which means you’re going to have faith in what the teacher says to you, If you ask the teacher for advice and the teacher says this, you’re going to take that to heart because you’re going to believe them, because [00:27:00] you respect them.
If you don’t respect them and you don’t have devotion, and teacher says, you should do this or you shouldn’t do it like that. Yeah, I’ll do it my way. You know, that means there’s no respect and there’s certainly no devotion and that that trust isn’t there
because it’ll be challenging. You know, it’s as you go deeper and deeper and deeper into the practices and the practices are starting to work in more, you know, deeper levels of your conditioned mind. it’s more difficult, you know, it’s scarier. your faith will be tested.
Your faith in the dharma will be tested, especially if you experience difficulty and hardship right in, in the retreats, like your faith is gonna be
Olivia : tested. Hmm. And so in that moment, is that when you kind of wield the trust, the faith, and the blessing? Yes. Yeah.
Khandro Kunzang : That’s when the, that’s what that’s for, is to get you through [00:28:00] those challenges When doubt comes in your mind or why am I doing this?
You know that that’s what’s going to keep you going when the going gets tough, the tough get going like this, you know, and devotion is one component of that. The other component is the compassion aspect. Our motivation is bodhichitta motivation also has to be there. It’s not really ultimately for myself, right?
And so as, as self kind of purifies and dissolves and the bodhicitta arises more and more, that becomes the force that when the going gets tough, the tough get going. Right? And so, because it’s not about me, right? It’s not for my me and my benefit, right? So, but in the beginning with the devotion. You know, you arrive at the point where your devotion will carry you through those, challenging times in during your practices.
Yeah.
Olivia : Will you also speak about Samaya? So [00:29:00] why is there such an emphasis on keeping our breaking Samaya? What’s, how does that relate to actual realization, I guess? Like what’s the technology of Samaya? The technology of samaya?
Khandro Kunzang : Yeah. Samaya creates the connection, Well, of course Samaya means the vows of the vajrayana, you know, there’s, there’s the hinayana vows, our refuge vows, the vows that we take when we first enter in, and those are vows. Then there’s the bodhisattva instructions, And then there’s the vajrayana samaya oath where we’ve taken an oath and they create the sort of, connection for you and the lineage, right? So you receive the empowerment, you take Samaya, and it means that’s your connection with a lineage. And as long as you have this connection with a lineage, the blessings are gonna be there and the protection of the protectors are gonna be there. So breaking samaya means you lose that.[00:30:00]
You lose you, you’ve stepped out of the field of blessings, right? And the protectors are no longer there. One of my teachers,
Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche He used to talk about, first of all, that we had these protectors on our shoulders, you know, which has to do with actually the la, cycle, the la, energy.
They’re sitting on our shoulders and when we break Samaya, our protectors abandon us. We break the integrity of that connection. It’s like, an electrical cord, when the insulation is, is there protecting it? The current goes without interruption.
But if you start cutting into that insulation, it short circuits, it doesn’t flow. So it’s really about keeping the connection with the lineage or a teacher. Our samayas are also with teachers and they’re with the lineage so that you can get the most out of your practice so that you can get them.
The [00:31:00] technology of the practice will work. You know, you won’t have so many obstacles. So Samaya is really important. It also maintains the integrity of the lineage itself. You know, they do say that when students break Samaya, the lineage integrity gets disturbed, and it also disturbs the life force of the Lamas.
There is this belief that when Lamas die young or unexpectedly, their students didn’t keep Samaya. And because there’s so much of the Lamas life force who has given you those empowerments and giving you those blessings, their life energy is very connected to this.
And when you break Samaya. You, you know, and what does that mean? Break Samaya? Well, maybe you turn against the teacher and you start badmouthing the teacher, or you just sort of go away and you don’t do your practices. That’s a benign, that’s, that is a breakage of Samaya, but that’s not as severe as things like divisive speech [00:32:00] and, developing your mind, turning against the teacher or the teachings, that’s really disrupts the, flow of the blessings of the lineage and lineages get kind of destroyed by this. You know, so of course we see this sanghas get destroyed. Teachers life forces get very much affected by this. So it is a very serious thing and it should be taken seriously. You know, vajrayana, there’s all these warnings and people should heed those warnings.
You know, taking vajrayana, Samaya and empowerment is not something to play with, So that’s about keeping our oath, keeping our word, right? So it has to do with the energy of your speech, right? Mm-hmm. Samaya is your oath, which means of words. You have spoken in that moment, and that bounds you, your pranic force, it bound, fused with those blessings, And so you go outside of that and it’s very disruptive to the [00:33:00] field. And then you, you basically cut yourself off from the teachings and it ends your ticket to liberation, right? A lot of people think Samaya means, well, I don’t do my practice, but, you know, with my teachers, what, they considered serious breaks in Samaya were things like telling lies to the teacher, being dishonest, being, you know, deceiving.
Trying to deceive, definitely, backbiting and, you know, saying negative things about the teacher behind their back, creating divisive speech. I think divisive speech is the worst one. You know, divisive speech within sangha members and divisive speech that is pure poison. It’s pure poison and destroys sanghas.
I wish there was more awareness of this. You, I see a lot of divisive speech, especially on social media, and people just have, they’re just clueless about, the effects that that has, and they’re not sensitive to the [00:34:00] pranic, energies that are, being released with that.
Olivia : If a teacher actually is doing something negative. Mm-hmm. Will you speak about that? Like the skillful way
Khandro Kunzang : there’s very skillful ways to talk about it.
You know, just very matter of fact to the right people, to the people who are involved, right. But, you know, if you’re, if through hearsay heard something, something about some Lama and you’re blabbing it on social media and using a lot of derogatory language it’s unnecessary.
You’re not even involved with that situation and you’re just spreading this negative, negative energy. And we have to be careful because there’s also vows not to disturb the mind of the faithful that people have devotion in a teacher. Right. So there are, there are definitely ways that you can discuss this and bring up concerns without being hateful, without it creating so much negativity and it [00:35:00] should be addressed.
It’s not like we don’t say anything. There are ways that you can talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. So
Olivia : we’ll move on to the root guru.
Khandro Kunzang : Yeah.
Olivia : So how do you define a root guru and can one have many root gurus?
Khandro Kunzang : Lama Dawa would, when people would ask him that, he would say, well, who gave you refuge vows. You know. But then other, other Lamas will say, your ruku is the one who introduces the nature of your mind. You know? So there’s all these different ideas about it, or the one who gave you empowerment, initiated you into a cycle.
But it’s the one that you’re going to feel the most trust in, right? And I think in today’s day, it’s, it’s gonna be very common to have many teachers, it’s not like it was in, you know, historical Tibet where, you know, you lived in a village and you had this monastery, [00:36:00] and that was your lineage and that was your teacher, So, because you didn’t really go anywhere else, So that was it. But in today’s world, and because you know, as westerners we’re learning a, religion that comes from a completely different culture and even a different time. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of medieval ideas in Tibetan Buddhism, and, and so it takes time for us to learn about it.
And I think in the beginning we may go to different teachers and hear their teachings and learn something over here, go to this Dharma center and get some experience. I, it’s very good to do this. What’s difficult is if you start taking on a lot of commitments, practice commitments, then you’re just gonna get bogged down with, you cannot hold this, So be judicious about the empowerments that you take. But as far as receiving teachings and instruction and hearing the dharma, I think we can’t get enough of this. My [00:37:00] personal feeling is the root guru is gonna be the person that you end up feeling that kind of trust, devotion, and you’re ready to sort of settle on this teacher’s path, right?
Every teacher’s gonna have their path. And so then they become your root guru. And the root guru means they’re your primary teacher, and you’re going to go to that teacher for your questions about your practice. You’re going to follow in that line. And if you want to teach teachings with another teacher, you’re gonna first ask your root guru about that.
Right? So that’s gonna be your guide right there. They’re your, they’re your captain of your ship, you know, guiding you. and also you are going to be receptive to correction, right? You’re, you’re agreeing that, okay, this teacher knows more than I do about the path, and I trust their advice, and I trust when they say something, they, they know what they’re talking [00:38:00] about, right?
So, that level of trust, the root guru becomes like this. that has to come with that experience of trust and respect and devotion, and you’re, you’ve settled on this. And so it takes time, you know, it takes time. It takes being around that teacher. You know, sometimes I meet people, they’ll say, oh, my root guru is the Dalai Lama.
You know, but they don’t, the Dalai Lama wouldn’t even know who this person was, you know, it’s just, they read books about the Dalai Lama, they love the Dalai Lama, or that, that’s my, my root guru. You know, that’s not exactly what we’re talking about. root guru is you have a personal relationship with them.
you spend time with that teacher, and then that teacher is guiding, you’re doing retreats. That’s the teacher who’s going to guide your retreat. And your practice questions, they’re going to be, take that responsibility. A root guru, and again, it’s a two-way thing, [00:39:00] the guru has to also decide, yes, you’re my student.
it’s a mutual thing. It’s not a one-way thing. We get to decide who’s my root guru, a,
it’s a mutually, decided upon relationship. And so the teacher’s also investing in the student’s progress and is going to, take the time to explain the teachings, and guide them, right?
So. Because it’s their responsibility. They feel it’s their responsibility. I’ve given this student, these empowerments and this student is showing up again and again, and I see that this student is committing themselves to these practices. So then the teacher takes that responsibility for that student’s practice, and therefore will also correct them.
They’ll support them and they correct them in their practice. Yeah, so I think that’s probably the more realistic definition of a ruku. And you can go very far without a root guru [00:40:00] as far as dharma goes. There’s so much to learn and study, and there’s a lot of
sort of practices we can do. Learning how to meditate, shamatha, vipassana many, many things. And going to Dharma centers and experiencing, you know, these kinds of ritual things going on, pilgrimage tours, there’s so much we can do anyway, you know, so like, some people feel like,
I don’t have a root guru, or I don’t have a root guru, and I, I just say, you know, keep studying the dharma, keep doing what you’re doing. You know, don’t worry, don’t rush into that.
Olivia : Can a root guru be in a non-human form?
Khandro Kunzang : Not really, no. That, that’s what my teachers would say. No. They have to be a tangible, embodied being that you are physically with, We can definitely feel [00:41:00] incredible devotion to like Guru Rinpoche,
right?
We should or now days, the great masters like Dudjom Rinpoche who have passed away.
We can feel incredible devotion and pray to them like this, but they are not gonna give us those, ripening empowerments, that is something that has to be on the tangible level, on the level of our embodiment of the five elements. the rest of that comes through very subtle levels of mind, which is also very important.
But no, the root guru is definitely a living. And then, you know, you have a root guru and they pass away, that, connection will stay for sure. I mean, Lama Dawa always took, Dudjom Rinpoche as his root Guru. And when Dudjom Rinpoche passed away after that, he never sought out Dudjom Rinpoche’s reincarnation, you know, because to him he was [00:42:00] still with Dudjom Rinpoche Jigdral Yeshe Dorje Jigdral Yeshe Dorje would come in his dreams and give him messages, when you have a root guru who’s guiding you, And then you are progressing on the path, you’re arriving at the stage where your mind and the guru’s mind are one and the same. there’s really no separation. And at that point, you don’t need a root guru, right? That ’cause the root guru is always with you.
You’ve recognized that your own mind is that. Right. So then you don’t need to be around the guru all the time. The guru passes away and they’re always with you, and you can have conversations with them. so that becomes a part of you. There’s no separation. you truly understand that state of one taste and no separation, but it was a guru who led you there.
It was this relationship with this guru that led you to that realization. the guru passes away and then they’re still your root guru in that case, they’re [00:43:00] still your real girl.
Is that
Olivia : your, your experience with your root guru Yeah,
Khandro Kunzang : absolutely. Lama Dawa is always with me. Kuzang Dorje. Absolutely.
Olivia : And where do you think it’s best to fully depend on a teacher? And where do you see sometimes students overly depending in, in ways that are unhelpful?
Khandro Kunzang : Yeah, definitely. I see this, there are students who wanna be told what to do they want their teacher to tell them what to do with every little aspect of their life. You know, like they don’t have a mind of their own, you know, they wanna be told what to do by the teacher and this is not
appropriate. There, there is a tendency for dependency and, you know, some of that is the students are projecting on the teacher. to mature in your spiritual practice requires that we have done quite a bit of our own, I guess psychological work.
I’ve seen students who are overly dependent on their teacher waiting for the teacher to tell them what to do, tell me what to do with [00:44:00] every little thing. And that’s a, that’s kind of a lack of maturity. Like this is maybe the wishing devotion or the liking devotion stage. it’s a little bit tricky because this is where you can get into cult kind of behavior, you know?
And, and that isn’t really a sign of this confident devotion. because you’re, then you’re kind of setting yourself up for the possibility of abuse. If you’re with a teacher who isn’t really, there for your best interest isn’t free of the eight worldly concerns, this is sort of my litmus test for what I tell people how to recognize, the right teacher, they should be free of the eight worldly concerns, right?
So they are genuinely concerned about your spiritual practice, not about any personal gain on their part, That’s the teacher’s job is, is that’s their compassionate activity and their generosity. they truly aren’t in it for their own gain. because if you get students like this that [00:45:00] sort of throw themselves at the feet of the teacher and you have a teacher who is not free of the eight worldly concerns, it can set up a very difficult situation where you get into this kind of cult stuff.
from the student side, we have to have done a certain amount of personal work where we’re not projecting mommy issues and daddy issues on the teacher expecting them to fulfill our unmet needs, these unconscious unmet needs, childhood unmet needs. I do see this, or expecting the teacher to be our therapist, right?
To cure us and heal us. You know, this is places where I myself have had to set boundaries with students because I’m not a therapist, I’m a spiritual teacher. I’m guiding you in your practice, but you really need to see a therapist like this. But there’s sometimes this expectation that the, the teacher’s going to, heal them and cure them and solve all their problems and tell them what to do.
that’s [00:46:00] not really a healthy situation and, a good teacher will not allow that to happen. A good teacher will rebuke this kind of behavior, and which may be very painful, may, you know, bruise some egos, but a good teacher will sort of, not encourage this dependency and will want students to be independent because you’re trying to develop this self-confidence of your own true nature, right?
So, there is a tendency for that. I think.
Olivia : So you’ve been a very devoted student. I mean, living with both of your teachers and so committed to the path and what have been specific challenges for you, things you’ve had to work through
Khandro Kunzang : We can get upheavals that come up as a result of our practices. You know, the emotions come up and we can just be enraged or get really irritable or [00:47:00] very rude or like this.
And, you know, mostly my teachers had incredible saintly patience with it and would just kind of chuckle like, ha ha ha, didn’t have a reaction to this. And left me sitting in my own kind of temper tantrum or something like this. You know, they didn’t respond the way I was, thinking they were gonna respond. And so it, it gets thrown back on me and I have to sit and look at this. some of it was the little unconscious game playing that we do to get attention or to be important or special or something like this, and then we get rebuked or rebuffed and, it kind of bruises our ego a little bit, but then we realize, oh, what was I doing that for?
You know, here I was doing that again. so these kind of moments. For me, Lama Dawa was always challenging my in inherent laziness because, you know, do [00:48:00] more, do harder, you know, like this, Sometimes I would get grumpy with this, but I had to kind of look at, there’s this inertia going on in my mind, you know, let’s, let’s look at this and deal with this.
Olivia : You don’t seem inherently lazy from the outside. Oh.
Khandro Kunzang : I mean, from Lama Dawa’s point of view, he hardly ever slept.
That’s one thing I have noticed with people who are awake is they actually don’t need much sleep. Right. So that ’cause that’s purified, this – you know, we’re sleeping because our – is still very, very active. And that’s where we have to go at night. Woo back into the -. Then we come out. When you’ve purified this, like when you’re moving towards Buddha hood and your sentient beings mind, your semchens mind is being purified.
You don’t actually need much sleep. So he didn’t actually sleep much and he used to wake me up, you know, I’d just be like this. And he’d wake me up, Hey, wake [00:49:00] up, wake up. Wake up. ’cause he kept wanting to give me teachings and I just had, did not. I’d be like.
You know, to me it was almost like torture. You know?
He just kept waking me up and waking, I was so sleep deprived. I was so sleep deprived for so many years. ’cause it was just how he was and he was doing it, thinking he was being compassionate. I don’t want you sleeping in ignorance, you know. Because that’s what it was. You know, sleep equals ignorance, but I just couldn’t,
so like, these kind of challenges, these ideas that we have about sleep, you know, he had very different ideas about sleep, that this is ignorance. You know, in his tradition he talked about his parents, his mother and father, they never laid down to sleep. They had boxes and they sat in these boxes to sleep.
And when Lama Dawa first got married to Kelsang, his father kind of what are you doing sleeping in beds? What are you doing? You know, like we don’t sleep in beds. Like, like [00:50:00] this kind of, discipline about practice, and anything to avoid sleeping, So I had a hard time with that.
You know, my kapha Nature was like, I need to sleep like this. So that kind of thing was very challenging for me. When I was doing strict retreats and we have these sessions and we don’t get much sleep, we have to get up very early in the morning and we have these sessions that after a while I didn’t need the sleep.
It took a lot of practice and a lot of, engagement to get to the point where this sort of innate wakefulness is there. And I actually didn’t need much sleep.
Olivia : The years that you were sleep deprived, when you were not in retreat, what did that look like?
Khandro Kunzang : Well, I started to develop all kinds of autoimmune problems. You know, my body was starting to break down. I started to develop rheumatoid arthritis and Hashimoto’s. I, I just was, you know, developing a lot of [00:51:00] autoimmune problems, you know, and i, I just recognized I was, that was coming from this, my immune system was not handling it, so I had to kind of fight for my right to sleep in some ways.
And he finally, didn’t keep pushing this, but yeah. You know, it’s this funny balance. ’cause when you’re not in retreat, it’s a different situation, you know, you have other things going on. But, um, yeah. So that was, that was challenging.
Olivia : So when you’re in retreat, then it didn’t have the same effect on your wellbeing
Khandro Kunzang : After a while, after a while in the beginning you have to settle in the retreat and you have to, you know, your body has to get used to just sitting and not moving around. Your mind has to get used to not bouncing around a tick for me, it takes a couple weeks to settle into a retreat, you know, and that’s just normal for the, for the mind to then get in the practice and enter into the sadhana and, and have this more continuous flow.
Once you’re [00:52:00] in it and the, the mantra is taking effect, then that’s another kind of energy that fuels you or nourishes you, as you say. Yeah. And then you don’t actually need the conventional sleep so much.
Olivia : Will you speak on what are the signs of a maturing student, maturing on the path of realization?
Khandro Kunzang : Like this confident devotion stage. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, being very steadfast in your practice. not needing to go get lots of teachings here and there. you have your practice and your path and you don’t need to get more teachings and you don’t need to get this, and you, you know, you’re, you’re steadfast and you continue to review and you continue to deepen your existing practices so that mind, that always needs constant change that mind.
The trendy mind. as [00:53:00] Lama Dawa would say he, he would say that that’s Westerner’s biggest obstacle is that we’re trendy. We have a trendy mind, we do something for a while and we get tired and bored of it, and then we gotta do something else. And we get tired and bored of it. And it, doesn’t help now with this online activity of scrolling it’s very hard for us to keep our attention on anything, so it’s very counterproductive. But you know, when you’ve ripened in your practice, you’re very confident in your practice, and so you don’t need to go here and there and you’re, very content with keeping to review and keeping to, deepen your practice. Your respect for the Dharma is there, you
you have much less doubt, much less, skepticism and doubt that’s gone. You know, you just know that this is what you’re doing. Like this. I, you know, that’s a sign of a, a mature student. [00:54:00]