Listen:
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Today we meet at the headquarters of Men-Tsee-Khang in Dharamsala, India with Dr. Tsering Norbu, who has worked here for over 30 years and is the director of both Culture and Materia Medica.
00:01:00 Dr. Tsering’s medicine heritage and path
00:01:49 Born into a lineage of Sowa Ripga doctors, how it has changed.
00:05:00 About Men-Tsee-Khang Institute Tibetan Medical and Astro Institute
00:07:50 Bringing together tradition and science
00:10:30 Changing landscapes affecting medicinal plants
00:11:00 Medicinal plant cultivation methods and challenges.
00:20:00 Making precious pills 00:22:00 Life-span and storage of medicine.
00:24:00 4 Medical Tantras (Gyushi) and medicinal species variation.
00:27:00 Farmers resistance to growing medicinal varieties
00:29:00 Medical research field trips in Sikkim, Ladakh, Arunachel Pradesh and other areas.
00:32:00 How imbalances have changed over the decades and what is most needed for modern times.
00:34:00 Painting plant thangkas and their purpose
00:40:00 Closing thoughts about the future
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Dr. Tsering Norbu
Dr. Tsering Norbu (Sman rams pa ‘bring ba, the degree equivalent to M.D.) was born in 1967 in the two provinces of Dbus and Tsang, Tibet. He did his schooling in the same region during his childhood. Then in 1983, he entered the Tibetan Medical School of Tibet, where he primarily studied Tibetan medicine, and learned diagnostic methods of acupuncture. After graduation in 1986, he continued his education in the sanatorium and research unit of Lhasa Medical and Astrological Institute. In addition, He also studied the technique of medicinal baths. In 1990 he came to India and joined the Tibetan Medical and Astro. Institute, based in Dharamshala. He served as a physician in Kolkatta, Delhi, Dharamsala branch clinics, and the Pharmaceutical department. From 1993 to till date, Dr. Norbu has been working in the Materia-Medica Research Department and has written many books. In 2003 he was appointed as Deputy Head of the Materia-Medica Research Department. In 2005, he was appointed the Head of the Materia-Medica Research Department. In 2009, he was awarded the First Position certificate in the Sman rams pa ‘bring ba examination (equivalent to M.D. degree). In 2024, he was awarded Bum-Rams-pa (equivalent to PhD degree). Currently, he has taken responsibility as the Culture Director of the institute and is the head of Materia-Medica Research Department.
Men-Tsee-Khang Tibetan Medical & Astro Institute
“The main objective of Men-Tsee-Khang is to preserve, promote and practise (Sowa Rigpa), the ancient Tibetan system of medicine, astronomy and astrology, to improve the health and sanitation of the refugees and the public and to establish dispensaries to provide accessible health care to the people regardless of caste, creed or colour.Education and Higher Studies in the fields of Tibetan Medicine and Astrology, Research and collaboration with scholars and institutes between different healing systems and to produce Tibetan medicines in an environmentally sensitive manner are the important goals in the development of this ancient healing system.” – from the Men-Tsee-Khang website
To explore Men-Tsee-Khang’s products: If you live in India explore here. If you are outside India, visit here.
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ROUGH TRANSCRIPT:
Please excuse all errors
[00:00:00] Olivia: I’m Olivia Clementine and this is Love and Liberation. Today our guest is Dr. Tsering Norbu. Tsering was born in 1967 in Tibet. He studied at the Tibetan Medical School of Tibet and afterwards the Lhasa Medical and Astrological Institute. In 1990 he went to India and joined the Tibetan Medical and Astrological Institute based in Dharamsala. Where he has now worked for over 30 years.
Tsering has written many books and is currently the Culture Director of the Institute, as well as the Head of the Materia Medica Research Department. Today we meet at the Tibetan Medical and Astrological Institute, also known as [00:01:00] Men-Tsee-Khang, in Dharamsala, India.
So I thought maybe we could start with where you were born.
Tsering: Okay. Yeah. I was born in Tibet, uh, near, you know, Shigatsé, it’s called Gyantse . So my medical, uh, Tibet Medicine Study College is Lhasa, Lhasa Medical College. I graduated in 86. Then I worked few years.
After that, I escaped to India in 1990. Uh, uh, escaped to India to see His Holiness the Dalai Lama. After that, you know, I was here. Once, 31 years, I worked in Men-Tsee-Khang. Uh, first I worked in one summer clinic. Then after that, I transferred to the pharmacy department. After that, I worked in the pharmacy department for two years.
After two years, [00:02:00] I worked in the Materia Medica department. Because, you know, because the Materia Medica department needs some person to, uh, experience in the Tibetan region, yeah? So we can compare the Tibetan region medicinal plant, you know, Indian Himalayan region medicinal plant. Then I transferred this department.
Since then, I’m working here.
Olivia: You have all the background of a Tibetan medicine doctor. You also know Western diagnostics and acupuncture. And so, now you’re able to compare Tibetan medicine and Himalayan plants. Yes, yes. Yeah, so, and what was it that brought you to medicine in the first place?
Why were you interested in medicine?
Tsering: Actually, you know, my father was a doctor. My father’s father’s doctor. Oh. Maybe to see, you know, this, something kind of, those kind of, uh, generation doctors. First, when I was in school, I was not interested. Afterwards, you know, [00:03:00] during school time, I saw my father’s treatments, patients, so many patients came to my house.
Then I, you know, my, my mind, I should learn Tibetan medicine. To continue my father’s generations, , knowledge. .
Olivia: and was he a traditional Sowa Rigpa doctor?
Tsering: Yes, he was a Sowa Rigpa doctor
his father was also a doctor. So, there was their generation, Our generation is different, you know. Their generation is maybe Chagpori, they are medical college. Otherwise, not a medical college.
So our, you know, generations, India, China, also, you know, they also established a medical college in Lhasa.
Their generations. There may be some no. To go to college. Just, just path teach, you know, all the knowledge. They become doctors.
Olivia: Ah. So they learn it from their families.
Tsering: From their families. Yeah.So, now, I think little bit different, you know? Mm-Hmm. from their generation. Then they maybe standard, you know? Which is, you know, through [00:04:00] 11 class, then you can start taking medicine. Mm-Hmm. , this is so good, you know?
Olivia: In your father’s generation, probably too, they could only get plants from close by, right? Like you, you were saying earlier that you sourced from all over the place in the Himalayas.
Tsering: Yeah, my father’s, you know, actually, my father’s not a private doctor. Yeah, government doctors, you know. Shigatse, Gyantse, we call it, you know, city of Gyantse.
They have, you know, clinic, also Tibetan medical clinic. Not Men-Tsee-Khang, not big one, small one. They also produce medicine, you know. Sometimes they just go to another region, they collect medicinal plant, then sell to the Lhasa Men-Tsee-Khang, exchange to the medicine. Most medicine we buy from the Lhasa Men-Tsee-Khang. Because lhasa Men-Tsee-Khang pharmacy is very big. They are producing, I think, 300, more than 300 medicines, different medicines. Most medicine [00:05:00] we buy from the, uh, Lhasa Men-Tsee-Khang. Growing up, like your father. Yes, my father, yes, yes.
Olivia: And, and so, right now we’re at Men-Tsee-Khang Institute, and we’re in your office in the Materia Medica Department. And, will you share about the main objectives for Men-Tsee-Khang first, before we go into Materia Medica?
Tsering: Okay. His Holiness the Dalai Lama he started Men-Tsee-Khangang, I think, you know, it’s 1960 something, something like that. It’s after, you know, his Holiness escaped to India. Since then, I think, uh, they grew, grew, grew, you know. Now it’s maybe Men-Tsee-Khang, we have more than, more than 100 doctors. 500 staffs. It’s a huge, you know, institute. Also, you know, so many Tibetan people are still getting jobs from Men-Tsee-Khang.
Otherwise, India, you know, Indian office, we can’t get jobs. So, Men-Tsee-Khang, I think, uh, [00:06:00] many opportunity to, to work pharmacy, other department, you know.
So, at the moment, Men-Tsee-Khang is huge. But it’s, you know, it’s before Men-Tsee-Khang, you have your own college, medical college. Now, you know, government in India, you know, recognize Sowa Rigpa. Sowa Rigpa means Tibetan medicine, you know. So those need examination. That’s all, you know, organized government in India.
Then you can give the examination. Then they choose the medical college, not only Men-Tsee-Khang. Men-Tsee-Khang, Ladakh, Sikkim, you know, Chakbori, and, uh, yeah, I think also Bangalore, we have two colleges. So five colleges in Varanasi, you know, Saranath. Then the student, they choose the college, then they can just, you know, go to the college. Before, only Men-Tsee-Khang, examination is passed, then Men-Tsee-Khang, student, you [00:07:00] know, comes. It’s, now it’s totally changed.
Olivia: So student, like to become a Sowa Rigpa doctor you have to go through these universities or institutions.
Tsering: Yes, yes. Now there’s no age limit. You Even if you are 45, you can just give an examination. If passed, you can join the college. It’s a little bit different, you know. They changed the education system to a modern system. It’s basic also, you know, text is the same. But how many hours, the structure, you know, it’s something called education structure. you know method, you know, you have to learn, you know, from the beginning. Yeah, let
Olivia: so you’re the director of the Materia Medica Department. Yes, yes. And will you talk about what you’re focused on, the work you’re focused on here?
Tsering: So, you know, I’m a cultural director and a material medical director.
Now I have two, you know, positions. There may be a few weeks I have to change my office. So I think, you know, material medical department is very important, you know, [00:08:00] because of the, now we can talk about medicine quality. It’s very challenging, So our job is very important to, you know, Uh, recognize those kind of plants is not right, not wrong.
Also, you know, not old, not new. Also, smell, everything we have to check through traditional way. Check, you know, even there is something kind of insecticides, we have to check our tongues. First we check traditional way. Then we send to the laboratory. In Men-tsee-khang we have also scientific laboratory.
They check the fungus, you know, and so insecticides. They check everything. Then it’s passed. Then we send to the pharmacy department. It’s allowed to use the medicine. So it’s, you know, high altitude medicinal plant is quite OK because environment is clean, water is clean, you know. Not polluted. But low altitude medicinal trees, something like those, It’s, uh, [00:09:00] lots of challenges because, you know, you don’t know if the water is clean or not clean.
Also, lots of pollution. Then, you really need scientific, help. Otherwise, only tradition. That’s very difficult for my experience in 30 years, my experience scientific, technology, the checking is very important. Yeah.
Olivia: Because you can’t catch everything with your senses.
Tsering: Yeah, yes, yes.
Olivia: Yeah, so all of the plants that you use then are free of chemicals then is what it sounds like.
Tsering: Yeah, actually high altitude medicinal plant is totally free chemicals. Yeah. There’s no chance. How many chemicals you spray in this high mountain.
Olivia: Yeah.
Tsering: But low altitude medicinal trees and different plants, you don’t know, you know, water quality, something on the soil quality is very difficult.
Even there, how many, you know, insecticides they are, you know, allowed to use, also not very clear. So, we, that, [00:10:00] this kind of things, you check more scientific ways, better, you know. You can get more, I think, satisfaction . Even, high altitude medicinal plant, there is no, so many varieties, quality. But the low altitude medicinal plant, so many varieties. It’s so many different prices. So you have to check very, you know,
Olivia: Much more carefully.
Tsering: Much more carefully.
Not only this moment, also the future, lots of challenges. Because, you know, the environment is changing, you know. People, you know, doing lots of building, lots of house, also changing lots of roads, new roads.
Medicine, the habit is also changing, direction, you know. So there’s, before I think 20 years something, East, then West, North, the medicine habit also changing. Because the medicine seeds, you know, seeds carry to the different region. Because of the, you know, some construction problems.[00:11:00] This is only not low altitude, also high altitude, also same. In
Olivia: the wild, high altitude? Yes, yes. Because where, so are you sourcing, so like, Could you take us through the journey of a plant, , from earth to bottle at Men-Tsee-Khang, some of it’s coming from farms, I imagine, some is coming from just the wild, will you tell us, , where it comes from?
Tsering: Most of the medicinal, you know, trees, those kind of fruit, you know, seeds, this all come from the market. High altitude medicinal plant, they only come from the local, you know, local people. We teach them how to, you know, collect, how to clean, how to, you know, you know, take out all the, no need to, you know, uh, part.
We clean, then they dry, then bring to our, you know, pharmacy. It’s quite, you know, good, because since long time we are teaching there. So some, I think, maybe. Some plant there, local people, they are [00:12:00] cultivating. Then we can contact them. We have already contacted. Then we keep in the one year how many kilograms we need.
From March we start to give in quotation. give order. Then next year, uh, September, October, September they totally dried and they can send here. So this is, I think, quite okay.
Olivia: Yeah, so you have many relationships with locals. Many, many locals. And that’s so beautiful because it supports them having a way to make a living.
Tsering: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Olivia: And do you have any issues with over harvesting or plants that you just can’t find anymore?
Tsering: , this is also, you know, high energy medicinal plant is very challenging. Because different regions, , it’s also very difficult to cultivate.
, when you, some farmers want to cultivate, they need so many permissions. After they cultivate, when you collect, when they sell, also they need other permissions. So it’s sometimes, it’s very, you know, confusing, you [00:13:00] know. So people don’t like to cultivate medicinal. most people, they like to cultivate.
vegetables more easy because no need to dry they just collect fresh because no need so many process, at the moment, you know, it’s a medicinal, you know, high altitude medicinal not, destroyed from the collecting. Almost, I think, destroyed from the weather condition, you know. Also, you know, areas development is also very, very, very connected, , issue of the weather changing something or not, rainy season is not the right time, late snow is not the right time, then there’s no chance to grow. So some people, they’re still collecting so many medicine. This is not, I think, destroying.
Because this is also good because they have a chance to grow anew. [00:14:00] Since a long time, we are also teaching some medicinal plant root. You don’t need to collect root.
Maybe few root you can collect. Few root you have to leave there. Then you can check more. So the
Olivia: next generation can grow. Next
Tsering: generation. Yeah. Then every year you can get the money. Also you can keep those source. So this is also, need lots of, Workshop, I think.
Olivia: More education.
Tsering: More education.
Olivia: It must be difficult because just to get to these places that are so far away is a lot of energy for you. -. And it’s not like you have a huge department. -. So then to go educate everybody. -. Takes time. It’s not something you can just do all at once.
Tsering: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Olivia: And then I imagine communication is difficult amongst these remote places as well.
Tsering: Yes, yes, yes. It’s very difficult. Even if you talk with the farmers also. Yeah. Yeah. Not only, when we talk, the farmers not a success. We have to talk to the, you know, state government. You know, allow to collect this medicine plant [00:15:00] to this area. It’s , difficult because, you know, people don’t like so many permissions, people don’t like.
They just, they can collect from their, land region. They can collect. If they do, to donation, Men-Tsee-Khang making a donation, it’s good, it’s something of a huge quantity they can sell.
Olivia: Yeah. So if they have a small amount, they just offer it.
Yes. And if they have a large amount, they can sell it. So you’re saying more farmers rather be vegetable farmers than medicinal farmers because there’s just less permissions, less, less trouble.
Tsering: Less permission, also more difficult. Medicinal cultivation is more difficult. Medicinal cultivation is not like growing flowers, no, no, not like this.
Because they have, you know, habit is very important, you know. We have to cultivate the same, you know, altitude. If something is growing at 3, 500 meters, we have to cultivate this region. You cannot cultivate in the lower region.
– [00:16:00] now it’s a little bit more also challenging because, every time, you know, it’s changing, you know, changing. Also some, you know, medicinal, uh, plant, only cultivation, only after three years, then you use medicine. In this, in a period, farmer has to taking care of those plants every year, you know.
It’s not like a huge barley cultivation. It’s not like that. It’s also damaged very easily. So people don’t like to cultivate medicine much.
Olivia: What is the process for a farmer drying herbs?
Tsering: Normally they are drying in their own house. So, you know, Dharamsala, their farmers, they dry their own place. After dried, then they call, you know, pharmacy, we are coming. We already have, you know, list of price. They maybe every year increase little [00:17:00] by little bit. as a farmer, they only get every year money. This also good for the area, region of farmers.
We also teach how to keep, how to dry after sunlight then you have to let it cool down. Then you can just cover it. Otherwise, in the warm, very hot, covered, all the fungus grow easily. So we teach everything. Perfect now, it’s no problem. It’s quite good.
Olivia: Yeah, that’s so fantastic, and Do all the farmers come for meeting?
Tsering: No, this, we have only private contact, you know. They’re only calling me, calling, you know, our pharmacy. Okay, I collect those plants all the day, you know. Then we check everything, open all the, you know, bag. They check from top and from down, we check everything. Otherwise, sometimes, you [00:18:00] know, they clean one, they put upside and dirty one downstairs, sometime happens.
Then we can, you know, buy something like this. Like 4000, 5000 meters, , Himalayan region, also, because of the tourists, destroy environment because there’s so many garbage -, you know, this, I think maybe future, maybe water pollution is coming at moments, you know, it’s because of high mountains, water quality is different, you know, lower altitude, because, you know, our medical system, you know, they’re talking about the foreseeable water quality is rain and then snow water, because this water is totally different, you know, quality is, you know low altitude, when you cultivate the medicinal tree, low altitude medicinal trees and something like those some plant
the water source is only from Earth. So this is also, you know, different, you know. You have to check the, , bacteria or something. This is very important too. Scientific way [00:19:00] is more important. Then we learn from them also. We also teach them also. Sometimes, you know, it’s medicine very clean. We check the, you know, smell, taste.
It’s very important to medicine quality. But the scientific knowledge is also different, you know.
Olivia: Yeah, so they really help each other.
Tsering: Yeah, you know. And we also sometimes explain, you know. We just, you know, if color, smell, taste perfect, then good. Even water level, alcohol level is low, but medicine quality is there.
Water alcohol levels, you know, every minute, every day, decreasing because of the, environment, you know. If you keep a medicine plant, something that will dry, keep maybe two, three months, water levels automatically decrease because of the, , environment, you know. This I think, uh, sometimes we can teach them, [00:20:00] yeah.
Olivia: Do you have traditional, only traditional formulas at Men-tsee-khang? Or do you also have newer formulas?
Tsering: Men-Tsee-Khang, totally traditional. Because since many years, I think our teachers, our, doctors, they , explain you have to keep our tradition system.
Because, you know, pill and powders, decoctions, they also difference, you know. If some powders you cannot make in pills. Do you make pills? Then we, you know, make the disease characteristic they use different, you know. Sometimes some disease characteristic fever, something like this
this is more effective in decoction, more effective. So this is rule you have to keep, you know, traditional way.
Olivia: is the Materia Medica Department also looking at precious pills?
Do you, are you also involved in that? , the quality of the raw materials of precious pills? Or is that pharmacy?
Tsering: Yeah, that’s pharmacy.
Yeah, precious pills, you know, are special because they need lots [00:21:00] of times.
If you make some precious pill, you can initially before one year, you have to collect those, you know, material. It’s not easy. Then, if you collect all material, you have to do the process detoxification process. It’s, it’s very long. Then, maybe After two years, then you can make the precious pills.
So, also there are so many different precious pills. Only, you know, raw material we can collect. But process, everything they do the pharmacy.
Olivia: They do the process. So you basically, you’re like the first gate. Yeah. Like all raw plant material comes to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then your department makes sure that it’s actually even usable.
Yeah. If it’s usable. Then it goes to pharmacy, and pharmacy does a second study of it.
Tsering: Yes, because Men-Tsee-Khang is a very big name, you know. His Holiness make we have to work very, very, very, you know, detail. Yeah. That’s it.
Olivia: Yeah. And, so are you sourcing only from the Himalayas? [00:22:00]
Tsering: Yeah. Himalaya. Actually, you know, the Himalaya high altitude medicinal plant. Tibetan medical system, you know, they mentioned more than 2, 000 medicinal plants. But we only use, I think, something, 300, something like that. 300, yeah. So those, I think, high altitude plant, not used often.But the formula really need. Thank you.
Olivia: Is it because those are specialty herbs for very specific causes? Or why do you, why is it used less?
Tsering: No, this way you can see the formula. If you mention the formula, Then you have to collect those plants. Then you can store in the store room. Then you can use.
Also, low altitude medicinal tree, something like that. This, if you have good storage, you know, cold storage, you can keep maybe two or three years. Plant, only one year. This year plant, [00:23:00] when you collect, you have to use within the one year.
Olivia: Like any leafy flowers.
Tsering: Flowers, small one, you know.
Yeah, yeah. This we use within the one year.
If you cannot use, then you, if you have huge, you know, quantity, then you can make. extract, you can boil, then you take all the extract from the plant, then you can keep more longer, maybe two, three years, you can keep, then you can use this one, extract, maybe, we don’t need to use too much, maybe small quantity, also very, I think potency is very strong, now it’s Tibetan medicines, you know, spread so many places, you know.Then plant quality, storage, maybe six months, then finish. 20 years ago, need, now we need huge
quantity because of the patients, you know. – have to, this [00:24:00] Men-Tsee-Khang we try to collect, even very hard, you know, hard work, we collect those plants.
We just try to produce those, you know, medicine for the patient. Otherwise, you know, private, maybe they are difficult, you know.
Olivia: You’ve been in Tibetan medicine for decades, and so, and you also are coming from Tibet.
So you’ve seen the environment in Tibet with Tibetan medicine, and then now in India, and all the other places you visit all the time. What are the medicines you’re making the most of these days?
And is it different than when you started out in medicine?
Tsering: Tibet and India also when we were talking about the Himalaya regions, Himalaya regions structure is a little bit different, you
Ancient I think, Tibetan doctors, maybe there’s no chance to go so many places because those time, you know, road is not good, you know.
It’s not easy to go travel there. But now, we can travel so many regions. Even they mentioned in our medical text, you know [00:25:00] Gyushi, they mentioned one medicine, only one species. But we can see so many species, so many different, you know, structures, flowers, so many. So those, you know, we also published our book to just put more.
Yeah. This is quite, good because, in Tibet, doctor, they can’t, you know, see those kind of plants.
It’s not allowed to visit those area. But we published this plant, our book. They’re saying it’s good, very good, because they didn’t see these kind of plants. This is like, you know, which is growing in Tibet. Meganopsis, which is growing in Ladakh, in the regions. Leaf shapes, flowers, same.
All the, you know, thorns, structures, same. But it’s all only in different leaves. So, that’s in Tibet, Gyushi, they mentioned that that one is only grown in Tibet. But other, you know, also regions we just put in [00:26:00] substitute, something like that. Because the leaf structure is different.
But now my experience, you know, low altitude medicine, , it’s quite, I think, uh, I already told you before, challenging, because environment. You can see those kinds of water, those other areas, not satisfied, you know, only traditional way check. But before 20 years, I go, you know, India also, um, different, you know.
After 20 years, you know, after 30 years, they change, big change. Those areas, lower altitude, new road, new house, lots of water also, so many factories, water -. Even you see Ladakh. Ladakh. 30, before 30 years, Ladakh, you can see so many medicinal plants, only Leh region, you know. Now it’s there, you know, building so many houses.
Medicinal plants, there’s no chance to grow, because all the water is also there. Soil structure is totally [00:27:00] changed, you know. There’s so many tourist spot, making tourists, you know. This, maybe future people, all the land is changing to house, you know.
Olivia: Does your department ever encourage farmers to start planting seeds and cultivating wild varieties?
Tsering: Yeah, we did so many projects, Sikkim, you know, uh, Ladakh also you own, you also cultivating in Chauntra.
Also, we own farms, you know, in Chauntra. They grew a few, uh, low altitude medicinal plants. Also, some medicinal, you know, only sample for teaching the students. But we did so many projects, I think it’s Sikkim, also, it’s no success. We just, you know, request, you know, to allow to cultivate. But the government scheme allowed, but, you know, people is not doing First they can ask how many money, money get. Yeah. That, that’s the problem, [00:28:00] you
Olivia: know. Yeah, the money.
Tsering: We try to, you know, advise to medicinal plant which is, you know, price high. They collect every year. We try to those kind of plant. . Maybe some people, they really want to hard work. They’re doing that.That’s good. They are also very success. Selling those after three years, plant. But when projects come to farmers, then first year, not grow, they don’t like, like, even in high altitudes, it’s not easy. Because of the weather conditions, you know. If there’s no, fencing, it’s very difficult.Because all the animals coming, you know. They destroy everything. Indian forest, they cultivate so many medicine trees. They only check only the green. Fruit, flower, they’re not checking. The greens not, not, not success because, you know, when you collect the tree, you have to call the nursery, this tree we like to buy [00:29:00] is, , which tree is fruit coming, which tree is fruit not coming, they check everything.
Then we try to buy those kind of fruit coming, buy. Otherwise, you know, just grow in leaves, not coming through, no use. Okay. Then, yes, we can send to the South India, -, you know, -, Orissa. I think, uh, you know, different settlement. Then you do one project, you know. They give the fund from the U. S.
Then we, all the magistrate from – bought from here. Then we sent, I think, last year we sent. Our, you know, community, and they cultivate. At the moment, it’s a small one.
Olivia: do medical research field trips. Will you talk about that?
Tsering: Yes. Yes. Yeah, medical field trip, obviously, many places, Nepal, Ladakh, Sikkim, so many, 30 years, some place very difficult, because when you field trip, high altitude , medicinal place, [00:30:00] We should cover all the regions. Because, you know, since a long time I have experienced, okay, this mountain, this medicine, this medicine should be there.
This, for me, is easy because, you know, it’s someone new one, you have to go there. You have to go there. Found, not found. Then my experience, okay, then, sometimes, mostly, you know, time is right. Sometimes not right because of the climate and different regions maybe sometimes the plant does not grow in this area.,
This is also a little bit, you know, uh, difference.
uh, 2005. His Holiness Dalai Lama, he told, , the government to Sikkim Minister. Okay, we invite our Tibetan Medical, research to Sikkim to check all the region, how the medicinal plants grow. -. At that time we did one joint project to visit West Sikkim, North Sikkim, some regions, You need [00:31:00] special permission because, you know, Sikkim, especially Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, some Ladakh, some regions, not allowed to, you know, visit this place.
Then just we get the permission, then we can go there.
Olivia: Do you think that’s a good thing, because then it keeps that land more protected to have those permissions, or what are your thoughts on
that?
Tsering: For the document, it’s very good. Because maybe future, you know, our next generation, they can see those kind of plants growing in this region.
Olivia: , if you think back to when you started in medicine and there are certain diseases that everybody was dealing with or imbalances, have those changed a lot in the decades? Do we, are you seeing different kinds of imbalances? So then you have to have different kinds of plants that you weren’t having to have as much of before?
Tsering: I think the formula is almost the same, maybe sometimes, quantities, you know, single quantities, maybe [00:32:00] methods, maybe a little bit different. Yeah. They change. There is no one formulas, quantities, you know.
Olivia: But like, are you seeing , more stress, or more sleep issues,
Tsering: It’s not related to medicine, because, you know, when I was in Tibet, my father’s generations, you know, they have mentally, there’s no challenging.
They buy all the food, one year food. Okay, they are very satisfied. No worries. Now, as you see, it’s so many challenges. People
have money, but no time. Mentally, lots of challenges. Those, you know, you need mental training, not medicine.
Because, you know, medicine only support. You cannot, you know, change your mental, , stress. You see, cannot cure, you know because we have ignorance.
Every day we have problems. This generation’s [00:33:00] people, , time and their relations, trust so that is only medicine can’t, you know, help. Because mental problems, you know, only you have to change your thinking otherwise Okay, you have a lung disorder, Tibetan medicine is good, not like this, you know. What is the cause,
you know? It’s the only cause of mental problem, cause from the disease.
Then we can help. If the disease is better, your mental also problem is gone. Otherwise, you know, something, abuse, something out of this, then you have to clean your mind, this, you know. You let go something like this, it’s better. Yeah. Yeah.
Olivia: Yeah. I appreciate that.
The root cause ignorance and the mental, the way we see things our like community, our relationships. If we don’t deal with those things, then Tibetan medicine is going to help a little bit, but not going to solve our issues. When your father was a doctor, community was better.There were less stresses. Yeah. [00:34:00] So that’s the big difference now.
Tsering: Yeah, it’s a big difference. You see, it’s experience COVID 19, you know. It’s experience. When I was childhood, you know, even COVID 19 came, no problem, because all the food was there, in our home. Tsampa, something kind of meat, something there.
But see, now we are everyday life. Just go to the shop, you can buy milk. There is something, you know, road blocks, nothing. You can nothing. There is, you know, everyday life. It’s a big change. Since 30 years, I think people, you know, in government, in societies, people’s thinking, you know, everything has changed
Olivia: I wanted to also ask you about your plant thangkas. So, so in your department you do all of the raw plant quality control, but you also have the museum and you also are in charge of, creating these beautiful thangkas.
And are these all replicas of the 17th century thangkas or? Where did these images come from?
Tsering: [00:35:00] Yes, I think thangka is, I think, you know, created from before 17th century. 17th century, you know, this is Sangye Gyatso. He created 79 thangka -. This thangka is only Tibet.
But we can see the published, published from Tibet book, we can see everything. I think 20 years ago we started thangka. . Men-Tsee-Khang director, he mentioned that Men-Tsee-Khang should have this thangka. Then we, we called some thangkas, painters,
then we, start this thangka because this thangka is not only for museum, for students. Before 17th century, Tibetan medicine, not learn only from text. Also from, you know, traditional arts way. Before, you know, it’s more, easy to learn. Before centuries, those people’s knowledge is very, very rich.
Because they learn only one [00:36:00] single knowledge, you know. There’s a very rich knowledge. So now it’s people need so many, documents to learn process, you know, learn to satisfaction. So we, you know, have all the 80 Thangkas, we, you know, finish it. They mentioned everything
Olivia: In those 80 thangkas?
Tsering: 80 thangkas.
Olivia: So have you ever had the experience where you can’t find, you can’t figure out a formula, or you can’t figure out what plant, and you’ve used those as reference? Have you used the thangka paintings in that way?
Tsering: thangka paintings, you know, in Tibetan medical, you know, gyushi, the text, they mentioned only a few plants, not huge. Maybe three hundred medicine and minerals mentioned in Gyushi. You go to other, you know, texts, plant texts. They mentioned more than 2, 000.
Now we, I think, you know, Tibet, they have new, you know, generations, some famous, you know, [00:37:00] scholars.
they mentioned only Tibetan region, they grew 3, 000 medicinal plants Tibet, they found. Also, high altitude medicinal plant, only 300 medicinal plants. grow in, in Tibet. So when you, you know, count Himalayan regions, more than 3, 000, I think.
Olivia: So the 80, the 80 plant thangkas don’t have all of those.
Tsering: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Olivia: Are they useful for reference?
Tsering: Gyushi is the main, text. Even they, mentioned, uh, plant and minerals less.
But they mentioned so many formulas. More than 10, 000 formulas mentioned in Gyushi. But only formula which is, uh, from Gyushi. This, this, we are producing formula not only Gyushi. Other texts. Also some other very old texts, they mentioned so many, through Gyushi, then they learned, you know, experience, [00:38:00] then wrote so many texts, you know, – texts.
They mentioned so many formulas. Also, we have, I think, more than five, six texts, formulas, collecting, which is very needed for this region, like something called India, also Europe. Tibetan medical thangka is not only for art. art also preserves the knowledge. Yeah. Even, you know, some thangkas may be, some may be mistake, may be color, something kind of mistake, you know.
Maybe only, not this, this time is not with doctors. Maybe thangka painters, they put in those kind of colors, something Right now, medical college they’re also teaching through thangkas,
Olivia: yes. And your department is producing those thangkas?.
Tsering: Thangkas, our department, if a student needs some thangkas, the teacher comes, we lend this thangka to show this, you know, medical college. It’s allowed. But [00:39:00] it’s, you know, anatomy, those kind of things, we just check all the traditional thangkas, also modern, they learn both. .
. Medicinal thangka is very, very interesting because, it’s traditional art. You can recognize. when you took the field, it’s totally same.
This is, very good for the reference, you know, Then it’s pulse diagnosed thangka, urine analysis thangka this is, I think, very useful. Just, you can learn basic. Then you learn more detail, then you can check real urine, you know.
Real urine, patient urine. This only, only for the color and the, some, you know, structures. Then, Real analysis is patient. You can bring the patient urine. Okay, they check the bubbles, sediment, and the smell. The urine’s, you know, colors, everything. It’s more detailed from the know, painting.
Olivia: Is there anything else you want to say about your work in general, or [00:40:00] any goals you have, aspirations?
Tsering: So now, you know, now I’m, you know, my generation, you know, so my works, maybe after a few years I retired. Then next generation, they have more work, you know, they have more hard work. They are more challenging. Present is very important, you know. Present, we can work hard, you can, you know, you can challenge those kind of things. You can, you know, check yourself. Then you see, I think, the future is ultimately bright.
Then I think the future generation’s traditional system of, not only traditional Tibetan medicine, all traditional systems like Chinese, Indian, all systems coming, you know, more problem, all traditionals, they’re using, you know, herbs. Human nature, human, you know, human body is [00:41:00] very connected. Element, five element is connected to the soil, environment, also our internal elements also connected. You know, you see, this season, actually this is, you know, Season isn’t, no raining is season time.
But it’s raining. It’s not good because this affect your internal element. Not only human body, also affect your plant. So this is, I think, you know, is future, maybe is environment issues, you know, people’s workings more, I think, yeah a problem.
Olivia: So you’re saying if we stay in the present and do our best, that’s, that’s all we can do for a brighter future.
Tsering: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, we have this problem, maybe. next generation, they can take more, you know, seriously. Okay, we should do this one. Not late. So this I think is more important.
Olivia: I’m grateful for your devotion to this work for all of these years and helping so many farmers and helping [00:42:00] people have Tsering, long life
Tsering: Thank you so much.