Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo is a bhikkhuni, author and founder of the Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery in Himachal Pradesh, India. She also spent twelve years living and practicing in a remote cave in the Himalayas.
Today’s timenotes:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:17 8th Khamtrul Rinpoche
00:06:45 Togden and togdenma (yogi and yogini) lineage and history
00:08:05 16th Karmapa and Khampagar
00:09:30 Requests leading to the Togdenma revival
00:10:36 Jetsunma’s cave retreat in Lahaul
00:14:15 Finding proper Togdenma mentors
00:21:22 Togden Acho
00:24:24 Becoming officially Togdenma
00:28:31 Khampagar lineage in Tibet
00:31:00 Practice group system
00:33:00 Togdenma practice path and contemporary additions
00:40:00 Full bhikkhuni ordination with HH Je Khenpo.
00:44:35 The four fold sangha
Four recognized Togdenmas with Jetsunma
Togden Atin and Acho By Ani Lodro Palmo
H.H 16th Karmapa, Togdon Choelek, H.E. 8th Kyabgon Khamtrul Rinpoche
Togdenma receiving red and white robes from a Togden
Togdenma receiving a khata from Jetsunma
Links:
Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo
Dongyu Gatsal Ling Nunnery
Rough Transcript (Please excuse all errors)
[00:00:00]
Olivia: I am Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. Today our guest is Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo. Born Diana Perry in London in 1943. Tenzin Palmo traveled to India at the age of 20. Soon afterwards, she met her spiritual teacher and became one of the first Western women to be ordained as a Tibetan Buddhist nun.
After 12 years of study and frequent retreats during the long Himalayan winters, Tenzin Palmo sought deeper seclusion. She discovered a remote mountain cave where she practiced intensely for another 12 years, including three years in complete solitude. Following her now, legendary retreat, Jetsunma founded Dongyu [00:01:00] Gatsal Ling Nunnery to offer devoted girls and young women an opportunity to realize their academic and spiritual potential. This is also where Tenzin Palmo continues to reside.
Let’s begin actually with the first person who made a request that determined the course of your life, your main teacher, the eighth Khamtrul Rinpoche who you met when you were 21 and immediately saw as your teacher. When you think of him, do any impressions, stories, or moments come to mind that have been significant for you?
Jetsunma: Of course in the Tibetan system you know, after you’ve had the 8th Khamtrul, then you get the 9th Khamtrul. and the ninth Khamtrul was brought to the Khampagar monastery in when he was one and a half years old. So now he’s in his [00:02:00] forties, of course. So there hasn’t really been much of a gap.
But eighth Khamtrul Rinpoche was really very, very, very special Lama. not only did he combine his own scholarship and realization, but with a, a very good ability for organizing because when they first came out of Tibet they really left everything behind. And then not only did he have a few monks and a few togdens, but then, all the lay people
from his village in eastern Tibet started to arrive and said, okay, you’re our Lama take care of us. So he not only had to create a monastery, but also a, vibrant lay community who could support themselves. So then, because he himself was an artist, he [00:03:00] trained all the, the lay people and the monks in doing some kind of artistic work, like painting thangkas and wood carving, making paper and knitting sweaters, weaving carpets and, and so forth so that the community were able to support themselves because there they were.
In a completely alien country. I mean, India was wonderful to accept the Tibetans and try to help them as much as possible and give the land, but it was really an extreme from the high months of Tibet to the heat and humidity of India. So created a community which he called across community for the progress of dharma and you know, so everybody had to learn a [00:04:00] skill in order to be able to support themselves.
So he was very good at organizing, along with being very quiet, actually. I mean, he was a big lama physically, but he was also very, very soft spoken and very quiet and gentle, along with his ability to somehow organize people into doing what they needed to get done. So at that time, I worked as his secretary.
Olivia: Yeah, because it sounded like in Tibet he oversaw hundreds of monasteries, so he’s coming from this very structured environment in many ways to starting from scratch.
Jetsunma: Well, that’s it. In Tibet, all the monasteries were already well established, and in a way the Lama didn’t really have to do much because the monks already knew what they had to do.
They had been doing it for centuries. And so once the, the Lama as a child was trained into their [00:05:00] role they were more or less free to do what they liked. So many of them spent many, many years in retreat. But when they came out to India, of course they, they had to do everything. Because you know, everything was alien, including the language, the food, the climate, the, the people around.
Yeah, I mean they had to reinvent the whole thing in a way, and at the same time establish their monastery, looking back to how it was in Tibet. And in the case of like someone, like Khamtrul Rinpoche, he also had to take care of the lay people and, and see that they also were flourishing. So Tashi Jong today, it’s very nice because that, is a very close bond between the lay people and the monks.
And within the monks, you know, you have Rinpoche at the top then any [00:06:00] Tulkus, then the Togdens the yogis. Then the monastic college and then the, the monks that do the chens these long ceremonies which the Tibetans perform so that everybody’s like a pyramid and everybody is kind of connected with everybody else.
So it’s very nice. And so our nunnery now slots into that because you know, there’s the monastery, then there’s a nunnery.
Olivia: Let’s get into that. So, well, let’s begin first with the ground of who are togdenmas, what is their lineage and history until they became dispersed?
Jetsunma: Okay, so we’re connected with the monastery of Khampagar, which was in Nangchen, the king of Nangchen was Drukpa Kagyu, and our monastery is Drukpa Kagyu. And in Tibet in, in that part of Kham Dege, Nangchen, there were at that time about 200 monasteries [00:07:00] and the Khampagar was the, the head and you might say the glory of Khampagar was its yogis or togden.
They’re fully ordained monks, but they have a lifelong commitment to be in retreat. and they are not allowed to wear the white skirt and the striped zen unless they are regarded as being accomplished. Togpa means to realize the nature of the mind.
And so when that realization is stabilized, then they are called togden, which means having that realization. And up until then, they, wear the ordinary robes maroon robes of a monk, once they are recognized as being togden, then they are given the white robes of a yogi. So that [00:08:00] tradition has continued to the present day and, one time when I first met the Karmapa, the 16th Karmapa, the previous Karmapa he said to me, oh, you think that the word togden has a, a really special meaning? Well, in Tibet, any old ragamuffin who couldn’t make it as a monk could grow his hair, wear a white skirt and call himself a togden. he said, you think that that striped red and white zen has special significance?
He said, yeah, it’s so significant that in Tibet women used it to carry their children on their back. He said, but the reason why you think that these togden is something special is because the only togden you have ever met are those from Khampagar monastery. But even in Tibet, togdens like that [00:09:00] were very, very rare.
And so we are very, very fortunate that our, our nunnery therefore is affiliated with the Khampagar monastery because it is the one monastery here that does have genuine togdens. And eventually they agreed to train our nuns properly so that they also could become togdens. Mm-hmm.
Olivia: And will you share too, the requests that the eighth Khamtrul, and it sounds like the ninth as well made?
Jetsunma: For many years I was working with Rinpoche as his secretary, and then one time he got a long silk khata which in those days was very rare. A long silk khata called an Ashe khata.
And put it around my neck and said, in Tibet there were many Togdenmas, female Togdens, but [00:10:00] now that lineage has been broken. So I always pray that you will revive this very precious female yogic lineage. And so to my mind, that was a, a really very heartfelt commitment. And so yes, even starting the nunnery and, and everything, it was really to create something for holding this precious lineage.
Olivia: I’m wondering for you, because you’ve done extensive retreats. you spent six years in Tayul Gompa in the Land of the Dakinis in Lahaul , which included winter retreats followed by 12 years in a cave, three of which were in strict retreat.
How do you think that time prepared you for this life work of bringing the Togdenmas back? And also do you think it gave more certainty to Khamtrul Rinpoche that you were the one to take on the task of returning the [00:11:00] Togdenma lineage?
Jetsunma: Really, I don’t know. You know, one thing leads on the next, leads on the next and Rinpoche had asked me about preserving a Togdenma lineage before I went to Lahaul, but he was the one who sent me to Lahaul where he said to me when they had moved from Dalhousie, where we were all living to their present site in the Kangra Valley called Tashi Jong.
Then he said, now it’s time you go away and practice. And he suggested I, I go to Lahaul. Then a Lahauli friend that I had that in Lahaul at the same time, basically sent a letter saying, why don’t you come back to Lahaul and I’ll find you a quiet nun or monastery in which to stay. So then the fact that Rinpoche said go to Lahaul, and then I got a letters saying, come to Lahaul well that was it.
I, I love [00:12:00] Lahaul and indeed Lahaul in the Tibetan is called – Khandro Ling the land of the Dakinis and it really is a Dakini land. It’s a very special, very special place. So I was very happy to go there. I didn’t have any idea about where this was going to lead or, I mean, I just went there because I, I wanted to do retreats I mean, Lahaul is Buddhist.
And it’s also Drukpa Kagyu. it’s not the only reason I went there, but it was very synchronic that it did also belong to our lineage. but you know, I don’t really make plans, I just see how things unfold. in those days especially there was no electricity and there were no telephones and there’s a, a very high pass that you had to go across [00:13:00] in order to get into Lahaul.
And so during the winter, especially in those days the snow was very, very heavy. So from about November to May or June, you couldn’t come or go because of the snow. And so it was a very conducive atmosphere for doing practice. So that’s why I stayed because I couldn’t think of anywhere nicer to go.
Lahauli people are very nice.
Olivia: And, and so once you came out of retreat and you started a little bit later take seriously bringing together this nunnery and reviving the Togdenma lineage. It sounded like you did go through a journey to find the proper mentors and the proper training. I mean, I recently spoke to Elizabeth McDougall, our Tenzin Chozom, who was at your nunnery pre its existence, and she was talking about you going to Gebchak and, and just trying to find the right mentors that could [00:14:00] actually teach the proper pathway for these Togdenmas.
Will you speak about like both before you actually found the right mentors? Who did you look to initially and then who ended up being the right people that could really help bring this together so it was authentic?
Jetsunma: So I started the nunnery because the Lamas in Tashi Jong and other Drukpa Kagyu monastery said, we have nothing for nuns.
We have nothing for women. So you please start nunnery. And I thought, yes, that’s exactly what I have to do. Because even though I had no money and I wasn’t a Tibetan and I wasn’t a Lama, and I wasn’t anything, nonetheless, if I didn’t do it, nobody else was stepping forward to do it either. So, and I recall that the eighth Khamtrul Rinpoche my, my root guru had said on a number of occasions, I want you to start nunnery.
So I thought, okay, [00:15:00] this is the time. So then you know, things came together. I mean, really and truly, I, I had no idea how to start a nunnery. I had never lived in one. How do you start? I mean, you know, I had nothing, but I, I looked up and saw this thangka of Green Tara. And she was sort of looking at me and I said to her, okay lady, if you want a nunnery, you do it.
I’ll be the front person, but behind the scenes, you’ve gotta get this together ’cause I haven’t got a clue. And so she did, and everything came together really very, very well. Funding as we needed it, people to come together to help to get it going. And then the first batches of young girls who came to join the, what they thought was the nunnery, but got there and discovered they were the nunnery, which was a bit of a shock for them.
Anyway, it all did [00:16:00] come together. And then after some years the, the question of the retreat center there’s several of these nuns who you now see as Togdenmas they were saying, when’s the retreat center coming? When’s the retreat center? Even though they were studying very hard, but really they only wanted to go into retreat.
And so then I really wanted those who were motivated should practice to become to Togdenmas because we had the Togdens in Tashi Jong. So, and Khamtrul Rinpoche had specifically said, please revive the Togdenma tradition. and at that point, I, I hit a bit of a wall with our boys here. Khamtrul Rinpoche, said he had the lineage, but he had never practiced it, so he couldn’t hand it on.[00:17:00]
And then the head yogis all said, well, we had got the practice, but we don’t hold the lineage. And so nobody was going anywhere. And then I went to – to meet with Adeu Rinpoche who had been passing on the lineage to Khamtrul Rinpoche and others, other Lamas, and he said, yes, he would give the lineage to some of our nuns providing that they had genuine renunciation and bodhicitta.
So that looked good because it’s the same tradition. I mean, we needed to get Lamas who could give it in the tradition of Khampagar, But next year he died. So that closed that door. And meantime, my concern was that our nuns were not getting any younger, they were in [00:18:00] retreat. They’d already finished now a three year retreat, but nothing was moving as far as giving them the practices, which go with long, with being a Togden.
And I, I asked many Lamas of our lineage to push a little bit. and they did so, but nothing really moved. And then after about six years of the nuns being in retreat one time Rinpoche said, oh, by the way Togden Acho and I were speaking yesterday and we agreed that we should now give the lineage to the nuns.
And so I immediately rushed to, to Togden Acho and said, Rinpoche had said this. And he said, oh, yes, yes, yes. Now we’re, now we will teach the nuns. I think they were waiting to make sure that they really were genuinely dedicated and [00:19:00] that this really was a, a lifetimes commitment for them and they had never taught women before.
So it was a whole new enterprise for them. So then Togden Acho very nicely gave us his this a small skirt that they wear for when they’re doing their practices and said, get that copied. And he said he himself had sewn this when he was in Tibet as a boy. And so it really was like very, very precious.
And so we took that over and they said, please don’t talk about it to anybody because this is starting a whole new thing. And the Tibetans feel if we’ve started something new and important, we shouldn’t talk about it because that encourages obscuring spirits to come and cause trouble. So you keep it very secret and then it’s likely to not run into too many difficulties.
So then I told the nuns, and they were [00:20:00] ofcourse absolutely thrilled and said that they would make these skirts themselves. They didn’t want them to go to Tibetan tailors ’cause Tibetan tailors would know what they were. And so then, really blessings of the Konchok sum. although he’s now he is in his nineties in those days, he was in his eighties said that he would teach them himself.
And so he would come over all the time and stay all day and train them. So now these early nuns are training the others when they come, but the Togdens still come over, not Acho anymore, but other senior Togdens come over and spend the day with the nuns. So it’s really very, very good.
Olivia: It is very special that you have to Acho who is the last of the Togdens from Tibet, personally teaching them.
And would you just share anything about him? Like any stories or memorable experiences or what it’s like to be in, in his presence?
Jetsunma: I’ve [00:21:00] known Acho now 60 years he, it’s actually 10 years older than me, so he was about 30 when I first met him.
And at that time there were five or six Togdens who had come from Tibet and joined Khamtrul Rinpoche. And he was the youngest. And so because he was the youngest and in those days, you know, he was only 30, although he started as a Togden when he was 16 because his uncle was a Togden. We, we became good friends. And he was the most open and curious, one time said that the other Togdens had green brains, like kind of a bit moldy and, but he had a white brain.
You know, it was like very open. He was interested in all sorts of things and curious about all sorts of things in those days. He was still, a young man, , all the other Togdens [00:22:00] said that he was just a natural Togden. Right from the start, he got everything because he was meant to be a Togden, in his life.
And then when the eighth Khamtrul Rinpoche died at the age of 48, which was a huge shock for everybody. Then he was, as I say his incarnation was, discovered very quickly through the previous Karmapa and Dilgo Khyentse, et cetera. They gave the name of the parents and where he was born, and also in a poem that Khamtrul Rinpoche had written.
He’d given the name of its future parents. So it was very easy to find him. And he was born in what is called Arunachal Pradesh. Which is a part of India, which you formerly was Tibet. And so then here he was brought to the Khampagar Monastery there. [00:23:00] And then, Togden Acho became his, his mentor, his teacher.
He was the one that brought him up. So he and Rinpoche are are very close because he was the one that was with him all the time. And so then the older Togdens gradually all passed away with various signs. And so now Togden Acho is the only one who is, is from Tibet, I mean originally from Tibet. And came over at the same time as Khamtrul Rinpoche, and he was always very nice.
I mean, he’s very talented. He could do woodcarving and painting and to any kind of skill. He was very, he said, I never trained, I just naturally know. And he also had a very beautiful singing voice. And in many ways he was [00:24:00] very, very accomplished. And because he was much younger than the other Togdens, therefore he’s outlived them all.
And it is a precious connection with Khampagar in Tibet.
So now that first group of our nuns have finished their 16 years, and so then I said last year, I said to come to Khamtrul Rinpoche, look, what do you need? To be recognized as a Togden. And obviously you need some realizations, but also Togden Acho also said you have to have received and practiced the full cycle of what is taught in the yogic centers of Khampagar and that usually takes about 12 years.
So I said, well, our nuns have been in retreat now 16 [00:25:00] years, so isn’t it about time they got recognized? You know, he said, well, they can say, oh, now I think I have Tokpa, I said, our nuns are never gonna say that. You know, they wouldn’t dream of, of claiming anything. But you can see from their demeanor how totally committed they are.
And so then Khamtrul Rinpoche wrote a very nice letter. I, I wrote, Rinpoche and said, please acknowledge them as Togdenma, and he wrote back a very nice letter and said, yes, he would present the robes to them. So last year happened to be our 25th anniversary. It was our Jubilee, and we had a big celebration. And during the celebration then a senior Togden called, he presented to these four nuns who had been in retreat 16 years.
He presented a set of yogic ropes, which they now wear. So [00:26:00] we were very happy and they’re very good nuns. Especially the three Tibetans are so totally single pointedly devoted to the practice and are really very exemplary practitioner.
They’re lovely, lovely nuns. So we feel that they will be a strong foundation for what comes next in training. because now the nuns can see, and even the small nuns in our nunnery, when people ask them, what do you want to do? Well, we would like to be Khenmos, that’s like professors or they want to be Togdenmas.
Now they can see you can do that, right? It’s, it’s opened those doors, which previously had been very tightly shut.
I mean, there is also a Khampagar monastery in Tibet, they rebuilt it and that also has Togdens. so it’s not just the one here in Tashi Jong also in Tibet they are [00:27:00] maintaining the Togden lineage. When Khamtrul Rinpoche went to come, he went to his monastery of Khampagar some years ago.
And while he was there, the the nephew of the previous Khamtrul, Drukpa Rinpoche, who is now head of Khampagar in Tibet said to, to come Khamtrul Rinpoche who was there on a visit, that they had this group of nuns who had lost their nunnery and didn’t know where to go and had come to Khampagar because they were part of the Khampagar tradition.
For them to help them. But because Khampagar in Tibet was also very poor at that time and, they didn’t know what to do with these nuns. There were about 60 or 70 nuns. And so Rinpoche asked, Khamtrul Rinpoche to please help. So then when Rinpoche came back to Tashi Jong, he called me and he said, I want you to do [00:28:00] something for me.
And I said, of course, Rinpoche whatever you want. And he said, okay, there are these nuns in Tibet and they have nowhere to go. They are part of our Khampagar tradition, so please can you get help for them? So then we have some very good friends in Singapore, especially my friend Meiling and I said, well, it’s nearly winter
find out what they need in terms of money for food and, and bedding and clothing and things like that. And so then we sent them some money to, to tide them over for that winter. And then after that, I, I said to Meiling, what can we do for these nuns? she got in contact with, because she’s Chinese, right from Singapore.
So she got in contact with, and his sister, his sister speaks good Chinese. And then [00:29:00] between them and Meiling friends in Singapore, they raised all the money to create this beautiful nunnery up on a, a hill. previously, these nuns had had a small monastery. Then their teacher had said, I don’t want to live near a town.
And he had gone up into the mountains and they had all followed him there and were doing practice. But then the, the Lama died and then the nuns didn’t know what to do. So that’s why they came down and went to Khampagar Monastery because that was their affiliation. And so because of Meiling and her wonderful friends in Singapore, they managed to raise all the funding
to eventually create this beautiful nunnery, which they now have now, now have about 200 nuns. And they’re building more rooms because there are more applications, more people want to join. And they are [00:30:00] basically a practice group. they have a, a system where a certain group of nuns will practice for three months, then they come out and carry on with the ritual, and another group go in for three months.
So they have like three months cycles, but they get all their teaching from Khampagar who I say with the nephew at the previous Khamtrul has been wonderful. And it’s a part of Tibet you can’t go, even Meiling can’t go there but he sent all these photos and videos of the nuns carrying all these stones originally to, you know, build the nunnery.
So they also are, are like Togdenmas in a way, although they you know, are not given the specific authorization, but they’re, doing really, really well. So we’re very happy that the nuns are coming up on both sides.
Olivia: And will you also talk about the training? So you were saying that the Togdenmas they were in retreat [00:31:00] for 16 years and they’ve had all this guidance and specific training.
Is there a very specific path they’re taking to, to stay in the lineage? And can you describe any of that?
Jetsunma: it’s basically what, what everybody else is doing, but in our tradition, they keep it very, very secret they only give it out slowly, piece by piece as you accomplish what came before.
So naturally, all our nuns also the whole nunnery in July and August, which is the rainy season when nuns and monks are not supposed to go out anyway during that time we close our gates and the nuns do a two month silent retreat. They don’t speak during that time. They chant of course, but they don’t speak to each other
this is all the nunnery. Then depending on the class they’re in they start like doing ngondro, preliminary practices of prostrations, Vajrasattva, mantra offering and [00:32:00] guru yoga, all the young ones do that and then they do practices it depends on the main rituals, which they perform throughout the months such as Vajrayogini and Guru Rinpoche.
Akshobhya, akshobhya is very important in the Drukpa Kagyu tradition and so forth. So they, get various teachings. all the nuns have done two Goenka Vipassana retreats 10 days, one year. Next day the very lovely lady instructors from Pune offered to come and teach them.
I thought it would be good for them to have the opportunity just for sitting and looking rather than always mantras and, and so forth. they got a lot from it, but they didn’t like the emphasis that this was the only way, which obviously isn’t the only way. So then we didn’t do anymore. Alan Wallace also came and gave a week’s [00:33:00] retreat on Shamatha or Calm Abiding, and then next year, a week on Vipassana , from the Dudjom Lingpa tradition, but he gave all the teaching in Tibetan.
So the nuns were very pleased with that. And so that was a little bit extra, but mostly they are, are doing mantra recitations and Vajrayana visualizations. In the retreat center they also do some other practices but the emphasis then when they finished all these various deity visitations is on the six doctrines of Naropa with as usual the emphasis being on tummo on inner heat meditation.
So that’s what they do a lot of practice on the six doctrines.
And Mahamudra, I mean, they they’ve had a lot of teachings over the years, from Lamas and from the Togdens [00:34:00] on practicing the nature of the mind. And also when any high Lama comes of course Khamtrul Rimpoche, but also the 17th Karmapa came and Mingyur Rinpoche usually used to come every year, and Tsoknyi Rimpoche just came and – Rinpoche and or any worthy Lama then
they not only give a talk to the nuns, but then they go to the retreat center and give a talk. Quite different kind of talk to the Retreatants. There are now about 15 of them. And also then conduct one-on-one sessions with them. So each nun gets the opportunity to go to meet the Lama and discuss whatever she feels is her problem.
And that takes hours. So they’re really very, very kind and the nuns have had a lot of encouragement with the Togdens coming and staying there and then the, the great Lamas coming [00:35:00] also and talking with them and encouraging them.
Olivia: So the four Togdenmas that have been recognized, what happens for them now?
Like, what is their practice involve? How do they spend their time?
Jetsunma: I don’t discuss their practice with them. But they just keep going and. especially one or two of them are more or less mentoring the newer nuns that come in to retreat. And also sometimes they have three years cycles
they’re in for three years, three years, three months. Then they come out for a few weeks and then they return again. And so in the future, I don’t know. I hope that they also will be there for the other nuns to mentor them and, and guide them. So we see what they will happen in, in the next year. The, the older nuns the ones who’ve been in retreat for so many, many years, I mean, they can come out if they wish to.
The moment we’re just coming to a kind of [00:36:00] completion, and then we will see where we go from here. It’s all in their hands, really what they want to do. One of them intends going back to her village She can teach and, yeah, encourage the women also in their practice and lead their practices, et cetera, because the villages themselves at this time are still Buddhist, but you know, now things are changing very rapidly and these al people are becoming much more affluent because of having crops of potatoes and apples and things like this, which they sell.
And so minds are changing very quickly. And so it’s very important I think for these well trained nuns to go back and encourage the people in, the spiritual path, not to throw it all over for the sake of money.
The retreat center is very close to the nunnery. I mean, it’s part of the nunnery, so they’re not isolated in that, but, but nobody goes inside the retreat center.
I mean, [00:37:00] when I go to visit the nuns in retreat every two weeks. I have to say one thing about them is they’re really jolly lot and they’re, they’re always laughing. So that’s good. At least they, they all look quite happy.
Olivia: And when you go visit them every two weeks. What’s happening? Are you, are you checking in with them or offering? We
Jetsunma: gossip and they often know more what’s going on in the nunnery than I do. you know, anything comes up, we just talk it over to check on how they’re doing, if not from the point of view of their practice that on a, a more mundane level, you know, if there’s – in the roof or something like that, you know to deal with these things.
and also just, to see how they’re doing and and tell them a little bit about what’s happening in the world because where they live, it’s all very peaceful and all very lovely, but the rest of the world is not quite like that. And therefore [00:38:00] to remind them, you know, that there’s a lot of awful things happening at this time to, to pray for that.
And so when I go, they also say, you know, how is so and so getting on they want to know about this and that, and keep some idea of, why they are in retreat in the first place, which is, to really recognize what, from a, a fundamental absolute point of view, what it’s all about.
So, as I say, it’s nice that despite all that, they’re, they’re always cheerful.
Olivia: I appreciate that they’re holding, the world in their practice.
Jetsunma: We need more. I mean, it’s very sad that the Catholic church has closed down so many of these contemplative nunneries, we thinking of them, a waste of time when to my mind, you know, dedicated minds, contemplating peace and love and, and so forth is exactly what the world needs.
Of course, [00:39:00] there’s a lot of goodness in the world, but the more it can get, the better it will be. And not to think that that’s just a useless waste of time because, you know, the mental psychic level is the most important in fact.
Olivia: What are your aspirations for the future of, of your retreat place?
Jetsunma: Yesterday one of our nuns, she’s, she’s not a, a retreat nun.
She’s studying. She’s got another two years of her 12 year study course, but she’s highly intelligent and so she said, could she speak with me? And I said, sure, what do you want to say? And she talked for one and a half hours, which is extremely unusual. The nuns usually don’t open up and talk to me for so long.
But a lot of part of it was about gaining the full ordination from nuns. And then our other parts were her thoughts about where we [00:40:00] can go from here. Once so many nuns have graduated and then, you know, in, in retreat and how we could carry on what more we need to do, et cetera, et cetera. It was very interesting.
I was very heartened that the nuns themselves are really thinking ahead as to what, what they would like to do and where they would like the nunnery to go. So I basically, I leave it to them because they live the life and they are the ones who know what they, they need to be done, doesn’t need to be done.
And we have a lot of little ones coming up who now are you know, very influenced by the, the conduct of the older nuns. But yes, just as a, a sideline you know, the, the one problem for the Himalayan nuns was that they only can receive the novice ordination, [00:41:00] and this has been something which has been debated and researched and whatever, how to bring back the full ordination into the Tibetan lineage, the – lineage.
And so then two years ago, the Je Khenpo, the head monk in Bhutan, said he would give the full ordination to nuns. At that time, it was just around lockdown. And our nuns were a bit nervous thinking, you know, nuns have 364 rules. How can they possibly keep them?
And so only three, three from the retreat center said they would like to go to Bhutan to receive the ordination. So his Holiness the Je Khenpo ordained with other monks, of course 144 nuns. So this was the first time this ordination had been given in the Tibetan tradition. So it was really [00:42:00] wonderful occasion for us.
But then he said he would give the ordination again and whoever wanted to come could come. And so again, we spoke to our nuns. I asked, Khamtrul Rinpoche what he thought, and he said yes. He had no objections to this. And then the head Khenpo of the monastic college in Tashi Jong in Khampagar came every day for three weeks to go through the rules with the nuns
in order to show them that most of the rules they already were keeping, it wasn’t really such a big deal as it sounded. And this was very, very unusual because in the Tibetan tradition, the procedure is you take the ordination and then you find out what the rules are. [00:43:00] They don’t allow you to study or hear about the rules until you have taken the ordination, which is crazy.
And often they put studying the Vinaya at the very end of scholastic studies. So you could have been a monk for 20 years and only then do you discover what your rules are. so the fact that Khenpo Choying came for three weeks every day for hours to teach go through all the rules and answer all the questions for the nuns, was really quite unprecedented.
And showed their great support for the nuns. And the nuns from the monastic college from the retreat center also came out and attended these talks because they said they also wanted to take the ordination. Therefore it, it all came together very nicely. You have to be over 20 years old. That’s the only stipulation. We have 57 [00:44:00] nuns who are planning, that’s just about all our senior base.
The others are under 20. And so they are all planning to go to Bhutan at the end of the year and receive this bhikskkhunī ordination. Gelungma ordination. And so that will be a huge step forward also for, this nunnery Dongyu Gatsal Ling and for nuns in the future to see,
Right from the start, the Buddha envisioned the four fold sangha. The four fold sangha is bhikkhu fully ordained monk, bhikkhunī fully ordained nuns, lay men Upāsaka and, lay women Upāsoka. In other words, all the followers of the dharma should be studying and propagating and practicing the dharma. the Buddhist, said it was like a table with four legs, which is very [00:45:00] stable.
So we are really simply carrying out the Buddha’s original intention, which was that there should be Bhikkhus as well as Bhikkunis. And of course, nowadays also the Upasakas, the lay people are coming up very strong in the traditional Buddhist countries basically practice and study within the hands of the monks.
The nuns often were not educated and the lay people were just very devoted. Tremendously devoted and generous, but they didn’t really know much about doctrine and they didn’t usually practice strict meditation. Now that’s all changed. Now when anybody goes east or west lamas are teachers go the main audience, our lay people, and amongst that, mostly they are women.
I really believe nuns have a, a tremendous amount to [00:46:00] offer to society, especially in being able to teach the dharma to, in this case, the village people.
And also I hope some of our nuns can be trained as counselors and go back and, and help in some of the quite difficult situations in these Himalayan villages, including alcoholism and some domestic violence and so forth. But the women have no one to turn to. Who can they ask? how can they get support?
Well, you can get support from these highly educated, highly confident and well-motivated women who are Bhikkunis so I think it’s very, it’s definitely the next step which needs to go. Of course, there are Bhikkunis in the world and they are already getting a lot of support from the Koreans and the Vietnamese and Taiwanese and so forth who have been Bhikkunis for centuries.
But [00:47:00] there has been a lot of resistance in the Himalayan sangha. Before they were not educated and they lived in very poorly run nunneries, and they, they would not have been able to be come exemplary big units because they didn’t have the, under support.
But now they do. They have everything. They’re khenmos and like professors. Now we have togdenmas, we have a lot of nuns who are they’re teaching each other. I mean, most of our teachers are, are nuns. And our nuns run their own nunnery. And there’s no reason why they should be deprived of the opportunity to fully enter into the sangha by becoming fully ordained.
And then people have more respect and they get more attention because they recognize that these are fully qualified women and they can really be of great help to society.
Not that [00:48:00] everyone needs to become nuns. Of course not. No. Even in the most devout Buddhist countries, not everybody became monastics. I mean, it was always a smaller proportion. But nonetheless, that example of how to live in a world lightly and with inner joy and the desire for service and really, really wishing all beings to be happy.
And certainly as far as realization is concerned, the nature of the mind isn’t monastic or lay, and the nature of the mind is the nature of the mind. And so it’s not that you have to become a monk or a nun in order to make focus on the path. That’s simply not true at all, because as I say to our nuns sometimes just shaking your head doesn’t change your mind, right?
And it’s the mind which counts. But nonetheless, it is a very important aspect of the Buddha, dharma and sangha, that there should be a strong monastic core who are totally devoted just [00:49:00] to living the truth and, and really having their whole life totally permeated by the Buddha dharma. It would be very good for everybody to have examples living in their midst.