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Today we have a brief conversation at a cafe in Kathmandu about some of the common obstacles and questions that Jetsunma’s students often share with her. Jetsunma then shares clarification on meeting these challenges and curiosities.
This is part of our new weekly season schedule of publishing shorter conversations in between our more extended episodes.
Time notes:
00:01:30 How to perceive ngondro practice
00:04:20 Knowing where you are on the path and blending life with practice
00:08:00 On shamatha, vipassana and dzogchen.
00:12:45 The four noble truths as a universal method
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Jetsunma Jamyang Yeshe Palmo is a Buddhist teacher and retreat master. She spent nine years in a monastic university studying all of the major subjects of Buddhism. Following her studies she spent nine years in a closed practice retreat. She also spent two years studying psychology and Western philosophy. Jetsunma is the vajra master of the study and practice centers of Kusum Khandro Ling retreat and nunneries and teaches worldwide.
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ROUGH TRANSCRIPT
Please excuse all errors
Olivia: [00:00:00] I’m Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. Today we sit down with Jetsunma Jamyang Yeshe Palmo Jetsunma is a Buddhist teacher and retreat master. She spent nine years in a monastic university studying all of the major subjects of Buddhism, followed by nine years in a closed practice retreat.
She has also studied psychology and Western philosophy and is the Vajra Master of the Study and Practice Centers of Kusum Khandroling Retreat and Nunneries. Today we have a spontaneous and brief interview at a cafe in Kathmandu
[00:01:00]
Olivia: So we have the great gift of having Jetsunma la here and I spontaneously asked her to talk about a few things. So I’m really grateful that you’re willing to do this in this moment. And so the first thing was we were talking about some of the obstacles students commonly come to you with the first one being ngondro.
Do you want to speak about people’s feelings around ngondro feeling like it’s It’s not the practice and just speak about what your advice is for people that are struggling with, completing their ngondro or enjoying the process, even potentially.
Jetsunma: I have, uh, observed or noticed is when, uh, you, Put the, uh, prerequisite to, accumulate the number of ngondro and mostly people like they get, uh, they don’t like that, accumulations of ngondro, the great number or one great number of ngondro.
100, 000, you know, five different ngondros each has to be accumulated 100, 000 times. And [00:02:00] so, uh, mostly people, they get like discouraged in between. And sometimes they would say, Oh, can we do just 10%, 50 percent or something like, it’s like kind of negotiating with, uh, the students and teacher. So of course I can understand because in this, uh, in your busy life, you have your own life.
you have your own like domestic things and, you know, the works and jobs that you have to do for living. But then, the thing is, the ngondro is also very important and, never think that ngondro is just, kind of just a foundation that opens the door for you to, enter the Vajrayana.
But, for me, I personally think that ngondro itself is the main practice too. So once you bear that thing in your mind that ngondro itself is the practice, then it won’t feel like kind of pressure or you won’t feel like, burden of accommodating that great number of one, uh, 100,000. once you have the ro it’s covers the four mind training, right?
And then the refuge [00:03:00] part, bodhicitta. Those different session of practice like vajrasattva, mandala and Guru Yoga, each and every practice of, Ngondro, it’s not just the foundation, itself is the main practice. So once you have, uh, you feel like it’s just the foundation or base, then, uh, if you try to move on and try to reach the higher practice, you won’t find different from the practice of Ngondro.
It’s just the same ngondro, but you will be introduced in a different version when you do the other practices. So I would love to, uh, tell people that please, try to see the main practice in ngondro.
The things that trains your mind in terms of practices of all the nine, nine vehicles. And at the same time, it help us to, generate, the devotion, generate, the patience inside you. And it’s basically like, testing you, testing, like, what what level of patience that you have to proceed, uh, further, uh, practices, higher practices.
Olivia: And [00:04:00] you were also saying that oftentimes students come and they don’t know where they are on the path, and so you reorient them. Will you speak about that? ’cause that seems like a very common obstacle. Yes,
Jetsunma: yes. So I saw many of the students where some are like in the middle of practice and some have already achieved, uh, the high, level of practices, but still they, they have no idea like, uh, where they are, I want to emphasize for them the thing is, practice is practice, but then the more than that is, uh, important is that, uh, you have to know where you are and, what kind of view you are holding and what type of meditation you are doing.
It’s not just about the differences in the lineage or something like that. It’s more about, uh, your own practices. So, uh, the, different practices that starts from the foundational vehicle, up to the dzogchen practice. There are so many different views and, different meditation conduct [00:05:00] and as well as the result too, right?
When you know where you are right now and what you are doing, in that way, it would, help you get, acquainted, to yourself, And it also help you to acquainted to the extensive, uh, views of Buddhism. You know, so it’s not just following the mass people where they are moving, and it’s not just you are following the, practice that is, uh, most recently trending or something like that. I think more than that, first try to understand the different, views of Buddhism and different preferences of the practitioner as well, so that when those preferences and, the options of view, it comes together and when it match, then it would be easier for you to adjust with the practice in your life so you won’t feel that you are practicing or you are making a, separate kind of time to practice.
Or those kind of thing. So in that way it will help you to blend your life with practice [00:06:00] so that you don’t have to Say like oh these days I don’t get time to practice. I’m busy with that Those kind of things happens when you see the practice and your life separately different, right? that’s the reason that I always try to uh, emphasize my students that please first try to to get introduced to yourself.
Olivia: Would it be possible to give an example, like, someone comes up to you and they’ve done all these different practices, but they don’t know where they are on the path exactly.
Jetsunma: So, uh, yeah, recently people, they, participate in the teachings wherever they get online, in person, they participate in every, empowerment, they participate in every Drupcho, but, they have no idea what, those, practices are done for, you know, what is the purpose, and what, is the procedure to get into that kind of practice. They randomly just want to get those teachings and that’s it, right? but, uh, if you really want to be focused, on a practice or want to be the serious practitioner, [00:07:00] and for that, you have to have the full map of, the views, meditations and other different stages of Vajrayana and Sutrayana stands and where they are, located. In short, it’s, it’s the same thing that, whenever you want to practice first, have some idea from where you want to start, And is there any option that would relate with my perspective So in that way, you would feel, more related, uh, with, the views of Buddhism, that match with your own, perspective and preferences.
Olivia: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So if you like really know the view of why you’re doing that particular practice, then you can even integrate that into whatever you’re doing throughout the day.
Will you speak about your thoughts on, the importance of stabilizing shamatha, but also the limits, and the relationship between that and Vipassana and Dzogchen.
Jetsunma: Mm-hmm . . So, shamatha would help us to, awaken the, concentration, right, concentration part.
And, uh, the [00:08:00] vipassana is more about the, uh, realization, intellectual or awareness, right? according to what I have been trained, shamatha is very important to build the base, whenever you want to start the practice.
Because once you are not disciplined, you can’t do anything. Like, even in terms of, daily life, like when you engage in a job, the thing is you have to have a concentration in whatever you are doing. So concentration is very important, like in everything, not in just in religious term, but even in your daily life.
So the other thing is when once you, your mind is disciplined or have the focus, focus and power, and it would be easier for us to build the awareness, part, too, right? But then, if you fully immerse into, shamatha, then there would be a disadvantage or bad side effect of that too because the awareness in terms of Dzogchen, the awareness is more important, then the concentration, of course you need the concentration, but to some extent you need the concentration, but awareness is more important.
so that’s [00:09:00] why build the base of the concentration through shamatha and, then go to the awareness part by doing the analytical meditation all those things. so once you get used to the practice the time will come that, uh, you won’t feel the difference between the Shamatha and Vipasana then during that time there won’t be any separate identification or, uh, separate definition of shamatha and versus vipassana or something like that.
Olivia: And if somebody is wondering, ah, am I at a place with my shamatha that’s good enough for vipassana or dzogchen enough stabilization. What do you think that is?
I know that there’s analogies around water and all kinds of analogies.
Jetsunma: in terms of time, there is no, like, uniformity in terms of time that you have to do shamatha for such, such year or month.
But it depends on one self, like once you feel like you can concentrate, the concentration that you do on image, [00:10:00] concentration that you do through the breathing style and concentration you do through the sound and everything. Even if you can’t reach the highest level of a concentration where it’s like Unmoving water.
Even if you don’t reach to that level, but still you can go on and practice Vipassana so you you Feel like oh I can concentrate on that Like, you know comparing to the time when you have no zero concentration power. In our retreat center usually we do just , seven days Seven days, but, uh, retreat center is quite different from the outside life because retreat center is intensive.
We do the intensive practice from, 4 a. m. to the, uh, 9, sometimes 10 p. m. So you, spend the whole thing, whole time in, concentration in shamatha. So in, in that sense, we do only like seven days, seven days, shamatha.
Olivia: And that’s for the three year retreats?
Jetsunma: Uh, yeah inside the three year [00:11:00] retreats.
And in retreat, you are like, inside the boundary where you cannot communicate with others and which is quite different from the outside life but if you are outsider and not intensive retreatant, so maybe like a year and half maybe, yeah, I think it, would show the effect if you do properly, In our retreat center, we do the shine after four mind training that turns your mind to the Dharma. So before doing shine, I personally think it’s important for us to have , gone through the four mind training of understanding the importance of human life and four mind training of, understanding the impermanence and four mind training of understanding the, uh, karma,
Going through a training that helps you to turn your mind toward the Dharma a little bit, then it would be more helpful in doing, shine, because once you understand that all [00:12:00] the mind or whatever thing thinking and thoughts, all those are like, you know, illusion that keeps on moving. We are the one that just hold the stream or the moment of our thought and we grasp the stream of consciousness and we take it seriously. And then from that, the self start, self grasping, all those starts. So once you have like that kind of substantial I idea about, the reality of, truth. Then I think it would be helpful for people who does shine.
Olivia: Is there anything else you think would be beneficial for people to know about?
Jetsunma: If I think about, the people in general, not just the practitioner, the main four mind training, or you can say the four noble truth and all those are just a universal view of Buddhism.
I wish people, they know that, uh, whatever is taught in the Four Noble Truth and whatever is taught in the Four Mind Training, that is focused on the reality of suffering, the reality of impermanence, the reality of karma and [00:13:00] all those things. So, regardless. the boundary of, the religion and, capitalistic world.
I wish people they know that this is the universal perspective. I think it would help mass people, the general people, to cope, in their daily life stress and even in their lifetime. Uh, I think if they know the truth.
Olivia: Would you want to, just as you close, in case someone’s unfamiliar, will you summarize the Four Noble Truths
Jetsunma: the Four Noble Truths is, of course, the suffering of, birth, suffering of dying, and suffering of aging, it’s universal aging, right? And the illness, it’s also the same thing. So that is the First noble truth, right? And then the cause of, uh, the aging, dying and all those is, when you are born, of course you have to die.
So, right. So when you are born, there should be a source from where you are born. So once you don’t believe in the creator, once you don’t believe in the designer or something like that. [00:14:00] that exists in other religions, then, we have to identify what’s the source of, uh, being born in this samsara.
So for that, it takes you back to the source of the birth in samsara, which is, three poisons and the, karma. So three poisons is the karma that is related with your emotion and the karma is the thing that is related with your physical, conduct.
So that is the source of suffering. to stop that, source of suffering, you have to, apply, a method, uh, to get rid of those, three poisons and, the negative conduct that you. perform in your life, So, uh, for those kind of thing you need, shiné or lhatong, you have to train your mind.
You have to, correct your behavior. Or the negative habits that you have. Of course, that is universal. Once you know that you are suffering from diabetes, of course, you have to work against the diabetes to cure that. You have to change your lifestyle, your eating style, diet style.
So, it’s just the same thing. So, [00:15:00] once you have, done that, what you are supposed to do, then, of course, you will see the result, the consequence, and that’s the fourth noble truth. When you have this idea of, the four noble truth, it would help the general people, whenever you have this, problematic situations and suffering.
Yeah, so it’s like a kind of proactive coping
Olivia: Thank you. Thank you, Jetsunma.
Jetsunma: Thank you.