Today’s episode is with the wandering practitioner, Tseyang Pharchen. Tseyang has spent over twelve years retreating in remote and sacred places throughout Bhutan.
Time notes:
00:00:00 — Introduction
00:01:15 — What drew Tseyang to mountain retreats
00:01:32 — Nature’s effect on the mind
00:04:13 — The first retreat, inner conviction and obstacles
00:09:46 — On not setting goals
00:15:44 — Settling into a hidden sacred cave
00:18:29 — Doubt and inner knowing
00:19:26 — Challenges of navigating remote places as a woman
00:22:52 — Day-in-the-life of retreat
00:31:19 — What to look for when choosing a retreat place
00:33:43 — Influenced devotion vs. natural devotion
00:35:45 — Closing remarks and final advice, followed by a song from Tseyang
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Rough transcript, please excuse all errors:
My name is Olivia Clementine, and this is Love and Liberation. In this episode, I sit down with Tseyang Pharchen, a Bhutanese Buddhist practitioner who has spent over twelve years wandering, and retreating, in the most remote and sacred places in Bhutan.
You’ll leave this interview, reminded that the most meaningful things in life don’t come from chasing results. They come from showing up continuously to what matters most to you
before we begin today’s interview, I wanted to share two more things for clarification We speak about a place called Taktsang which is a Buddhist vajrayana monastery in Bhutan, .
We also speak about tsampa, which is a traditional Himalayan staple of roasted ground grains,
[00:01:15] Olivia: So thank you, Tseyang, for being willing to talk with me. Yeah. I’m very, much looking forward to exploring some of these things, and I wanted to see if we could begin just with the, the bigger picture of what drew you to mountain retreats.
[00:01:32] Tseyang: Yeah. Because of my practice, uh, when I’m in mountain, the practice progress well, so y- that, that’s why mountain encouraged me to, mm, practice in the mountain. Yeah. Mountain, actually, we can do anywhere, but, uh, sometimes, some place serve us right, on our practice.
at this moment and for, like, so far, I’ve been in mountain. I usually don’t stay in winter in mountain, So because of this, cold, harsh winter, I don’t get water. And mountain are the home for the practitioners, especially who, are interested in any kind of practice. And, Specifically on the, the meditations and these things.
When it comes to like chantings, we do some cha- chantings and do some deity practice, it’s fine anywhere. As per my individual experience, mountain is everything for
me.
[00:02:45] Olivia: how does it support your mind or your practice?
[00:02:49] Tseyang: Yeah, it, it depends on our, like individual’s, you know, experience.
While we are there, we are always by ourself. Although we are middle of the, this high mountain and the wind blows, you cannot even notice the s- surrounding. You will be lost in your practice. I- I- it’s… Lost is actually not a suitable word at all. But my English, you know, there’s, um, I- I don’t know what kind of word- Just fully, fully immersed in the practice
immersed. Yeah, immersed- Yeah … in practice. And our eyes can see, you know? We, we… In Tibetan it say, it says like nang. You know, nang means to see the things. Mm-hmm. When our eyes can see, our mind can just follow the, the view, uh, in mountain. Even our eyes can see there is nothing to follow the way, because no- nature is free and we cannot get attached.
Do… I- I hope you can also relate in this
[00:03:55] Olivia: thing. I definitely can relate. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Your story about choosing to go to Taktsang regardless of not being supported- Yeah … was really moving for me to hear, and I wanted to see if you would share that story
[00:04:13] Tseyang: yeah. Like when we are going to do something meaningful, something is going to happen like there, like especially obstacles. But, uh, we should take that obstacles to encourage our path. Mm. Yeah. So, yeah, when I start my, to be a practitioner, my… Actually my parents and they are like supported, but they don’t wanted me to practice in the young age, you know?
Young age, and also, like, even we are, like, young or old, in our parents’ eyes, we are always a bit, like, you know, like a baby to them. Mm. They always get worried. So that way, you know, my parents, uh, parents was not happy at the beginning because they are worried. And, yeah, but anyhow, when I went to the Taktsang for my first, like, retreat, I choose this place because I, I feel the connection, you know?
When we are into something and when we make a decision, everything seems easy. When I look back I, I feel I’m kind of like crazy, you know, see. Because I did some crazy kind of things. People may also seem like that, but when we are like in strong connecti- connected, connected to the work or a practice, we will do whatever is possible to make it, you know, um, that what we wish, And so, in that way, I also did same thing. I decided, I made a decision, I set a date, or I’m going on this date. Of course, they, we need motivation. Yeah. Everything should comes together, cause and conditions. So, that way, everything… eventhough, like, there is a cause, if there o- there is no conditions, then we cannot make it, you know?
So both should come together, this cause and conditions, then things will get easier to approach, yeah, I started practice, in Taktsang. I was, like, in my, uh, yeah, age is, a little bit, you know. when it comes to practice, age doesn’t matter and also, like, in a relationship.
the lady is old, people will, judge, you know, “Oh, lady is old.” When guy is old, it’s okay to even the lady is in teen, you know? Then they will say like, “Age is just a number.” Uh, I, I heard this saying so many times. Mm-hmm. Similar, but in this, uh, practicing case, it’s different. Uh, if you’re, like, interested or had a strong determination- then in any age, we can do the things in the right place. Age doesn’t matter. we are going to practice in our 80, and we are going to live one year. Even one year is, is enough, what make us the practitioner is m- having a motivation and, uh, having a strong determination, encouraging ourself to practice, keep on practicing.
So, don’t think about the results while we are practice, you know? If, if we think about the result while we practice, then i- you will feel some kind of like bored, thinking about the result because result, showing result while we are practicing overnight won’t make it, you know. So it takes time, but
It also will progress in a shorter time as per our how we practice, And it’s, we need everything in our life, mindset, In a good mindset, devotions, and also should be disciplined while we practice. Discipline is not doing like laypeople do, but in this, keep on practicing is the d- discipline.
everyone practice for 100 years, and the practice doesn’t make progress, then it d- it’s not use of the years. You know, I practice this long, even I stay, I live in the solitary mountains alone, and if my practice doesn’t progress, it’s no use. I’m wasting my time, energy, you know? So if your practice is progress in within a week, that is the best. Without practicing in a proper way, without, progressing, we cannot call ourself as a practitioner.
[00:09:29] Olivia: For you, this moment in your practice- Mm-hmm … do you have very particular aspirations for your progress right now?
Like, are there things you, you’re like, “Oh, this is what I’m hoping to move towards through my daily devotion to- Yeah … daily discipline?”
[00:09:46] Tseyang: before, you know, when I was a beginner practice, I used to think of, oh, I wish I could, do something like that to reach certain level because we human have this mind to create some thoughts.
It’s okay to, bring this and gives hope, It’s also not good while sitting, you know, in lay people’s whatever they, they work, They, they usually have a goal, and every, successful man had a, goal, you know? Then only they become successful.
but in practitioner, I, I don’t think we need, to set a goal or, like, something, oh, I want this kind of result, you know? We, We just have to do is Keep on practicing The result will come automatically. Like, you know, if you keep on grooming the flower, like put, uh, the watering on time- you know, doing things. And we are not expecting the flower to bloom, but however it will bloom a- as per its time, you know? So yeah, sometimes we expect flower bloom many. It will just bloom, uh, one or two. We don’t expect flower to bloom this beautifully. It bloom beautifully, you know?
We don’t have to think about, like, to be a better practitioner. We just have to keep on practicing. If you progress, then you will become better, you know?
[00:11:26] Olivia: before we keep going in the conversation, I want to go back to Taktsang.
Yeah. Because I just wanted to mention this one piece- you had shared about showing up at Taktsang- Mm-hmm … about a place with your mother.
[00:11:38] Tseyang: Yeah. Like, will you
[00:11:38] Olivia: share that piece
[00:11:39] Tseyang: Yeah, I was saying that was a crazy part, you know?
I, I won’t, uh, forget, throughout my life. I just called my mom, you know, that time. Uh, actually, there was no place in the Taktsang, you know? the retreat place will be empty, vacant after, like, three months. There was someone who is retreating that time.
And so at that time, even I called my mom, uh, that, “Okay, let’s, now let’s go to Taktsang,” you know? Then I didn’t even say to my mom that there is no place.
My mom asked me, “Are you sure there is a place?” Then I said, “Yes, yes, there is place,” you know? I already
talked to that, you know, Taktsang, the lama. I see. And me and my mom, we went just, like, walk, walk, and we stopped in the, the, the viewpoint Taktsang. At that time, like, uh, right after we reached there, I made a call to lama, like, you know- Hello, Lama, I’m here in Taktsang. He was not sure, like he, he was surprised, you know?
“What, what, what?” He was saying. Then I s- I’m in Taktsang, you know? And yeah, I, I can understand his, that moment, you know? Then he was saying, “You must be crazy, you know? There is no place here. You, you must be joking.” And he say. Then I said like, “No, no, no, Lama, I’m here.” Then my mom heard me. My mom
my mom is so mad on me, I can also understand her, you know? Even I can do the same thing if I’m in her place. Mm-hmm. So then my mom was, “You, you, you must have gone crazy now, you know? You should have said it’s so shameful, you know, without making any, uh, making sure, you know?”
Uh, then I said, you know, “Don’t worry, Mom.” Then my mom was so angry, you know, and he’s not going to talk to me. Then Lama was saying, “I’m coming there.” Then when Lama show up, then of course he have to support me. Then I, I said, you know, “However, Lama, I, I need place.” I said, you know, “I need place.
Then Lama is, “There is no place here, you know, in Taktsang.” Then I say, “However, Lama, I need place, you know? I cannot wait three months.” Mm. When it comes to practice, uh, like I was just using also, like, impermanence thing. Uh, who knows, I might change my mind in a few days.
I’m a human. I also said that. He said for three nights you can stay in this small temple, they have like on the way we can see next time and go to Taktsang, There is on the way a small temple. So me and my mom s- stayed there for three nights. She’s not going to talk to me.
She’s so angry, After three days, Lama arranged one kind of a very haunted like place. he actually put me there purposely. I think so in later because it was like a very, like old house. Family who owned the house- all the family, you know, they are like, even like grand- granddaughters also, the no more, Wow. They’ve all died. Died, and als- only one son left. Yeah. And he’s not able to take care of the, this place, and he offer it to the monastery. there is no big window. There is only small window in the up, It’s totally dark and dirty, you know. So yeah, I started my practice from that moment.
Wow. Crazy moment. And
[00:15:40] Olivia: you stayed there, and then After that you were in Yeshe Tsogyal’s cave?
[00:15:44] Tseyang: Yeah. Actually, it’s a cave. Now they have a small temple, you know, just hanging, you know, in the cave. it’s called the Singe Phuk.
Yeah. So after that, I went that place. Although the place is very blissful and, good to practice, and the place where female, has practice and- it will have a good influence and But the place is the way to the Takstang and quite the disturbance with the peoples, this noise and this thing. So I moved to the other part of the Taktsang. From there, it’s like one hour. And that, uh, area is the, like, hidden, you know. Hidden, and the p- that place is the place where, Guru Padmasambhava and Tashi Choden, practice in that sacred Phuk cave.
It’s called, you know, Sangwe Dapu of the… Sangwe Dapu means, Sangwe, Sangwe means like a sacred, you know, and, uh, like hidden. Yeah, hidden. And I, I like that place, and it, uh, it’s rare to see people and I cannot hear anything. There is completely, peace. Then I stayed, there for, more than two years.
Yeah. It was a good experience. But different people have different ways making decisions and these things. Without decision, we cannot, we will be like in the k- kind of like confusion, you know? Mm-hmm. Uh, the mind to stay in peaceful and solitary places, but our body cannot accept that place. It drag our mind, you know, uh, this body, lazy body.
Should stay. also especially, uh, for this is for, like, practitioner. So at that time- body will be, uh, most of the time they wanted neat, comfortable place, you know? Just listen to your mind, and at that m- moment, uh, we can, you know, make a decision, right decisions. Especially being a human, we were stuck in some environment w- where our mind is not happy, So at that moment, we should always take a decision if the, the thing is not serving us good, Then staying in this place, uh, um, making ourselves more s- stressful. When, then things is not going to work.
[00:18:29] Olivia: You’ve also said, it’s important that we don’t ask people all the time and tell people things and try to get answers from people, that it’s really important that we look within.
We, whatever we do,
[00:18:42] Tseyang: although we practice or, like, not, but especially wh- when we practice There will be, uh, two, two things. Either a doubt or either we’ll find answer. Most of people have some questions, doubts, and these things, but we should not always ask so many doubts to the people. But it’s good to find the answer by ourself.
That is the best answer, answer. Yeah.
[00:19:21] Olivia: it’s very unusual that you’re a wandering yogi as a female.
[00:19:26] Tseyang: yogi- yogini or like dakini, everyone- Yeah … have this, um, special spot in them. Uh, I’m comfortable being a simple practitioner rather than yogi and these things, It doesn’t, uh, bother me calling whatever it is, but the thing is I’m more c- comfortable in, you know, this should call tsampa. Tsampa means a retreater. .
Being female is challenging, also easy to approach the things because we female have this kind of like so soft, uh, heart, It’s more flexible than men, f- women are. We female- Have these hardships, even like shortcomings, We know how to overcome and, and also acceptance the differences, That way, when we are acceptance, then everything become manageable in any kind of situations, Being a female challenging is, uh, in the new
going to a new place, meeting with the new people, you know? And especially in those mountains, there is also female but most of the time if I ask for them to guide m- me the way- then there will be always a man to, go with me. So that also a challenging. When we go together, this with the nomad and I, I will have a thought like, “What if he do something like,” you know, “and, and kill me and dump somewhere?”
These kind of thoughts used to arise but it’s good to have a, uh, these kind of thoughts, so that I can, observe and reflect on this and I will find a way to how to free, free from the fear, you know, this kind of thoughts. Then at that moment I cannot r- uh, do the things but it, uh, does come slowly, to when we are like more observant to oneself, reflecting, and then answer co- come, you how to overcome and the fear, I thought being born in the samsara, being, human, good and bad will never end unless we leave this world, you know? And we cannot, know how long we are going to live,
and at that moment, I thought, from today, I’m not going to think if someone is going to do something, if even wild animals is going to attack me, and yeah, they eat me in this, in a wild forest or in the mountain. It’s okay. Then my fear is no more. I was like, my mind is craft by this, few words, And I became strong and, , eventhough I hear the voice of the man and these things- It’s like a wind passing, it doesn’t disrupt.
[00:22:52] Olivia: Yeah. I wanted to see if you would share a day in the life of a retreat.
Mm-hmm. ‘Cause you’re about to go- Yeah … into retreat for many months, and you really do live with the land. And would you be willing to share, like, as much detail as you’re willing in terms of, like, sleeping to waking, what happens throughout the day, back to sleeping?
[00:23:16] Tseyang: Oh, wow. Yeah. It’s like a 24 hours vlog.
Right? Yes. Yeah, ex- Including
[00:23:24] Olivia: actually the getting to, because you were saying right now, like sometimes for instance, like a yak herder will bring your supplies. Even, like, how much supplies do you bring?
[00:23:34] Tseyang: Mm. Just these
[00:23:35] Olivia: kinds of things too.
[00:23:36] Tseyang: Yeah. Uh, depends on the place, places. And especially in mountain, um, I, I sleep very less.
And also, it’s not lying your whole body in the, the f- flat, uh, mattress. I usually lean. I just put my bag, backpack just behind me and, yeah, I just lean, and I cover myself, with a sleeping bag. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are your feet straight out or cross-legged?
Crossed leg, I do also straight. at night also I do practice because Three or four days hiking in the mountain and, you know, being in this landscape are beautiful but the, the weather sometimes gets bad.
So these are the challenging, you know. Then I don’t want to do waste time because it’s not easy to get there. Walking, hiking for like three to four days and I used to have this thought.
And when I reach to this spot- I’m not practicing, just floated away by and, you know, enjoying the landscape and just walking here, there, then, oh, I should not, you know. Mm. Those hiking also encourage your, practice- Mm … to be in practice, you know. Yeah, actually we see eating, sleeping and this all became part of our practice, but still then, you know, when we are in practicing posture, it, it will be little different.
we will be more focused, Inwardly, yeah. that, that way, you know, even though I’m hungry, I feel like, I will have my tsampa and this hot black tea later, you know. After my practice I, I, I will just do one more practice, you know, one session.
Then I, I keep doing and whenever I’m in practice my, this stomach, you know, uh, still then, um, it doesn’t disrupt, you know. Yeah, I will finish my session, you know. And in mountain I usually do six to eight session. I don’t stick on the one practice because we have as per the, you know, mo- morning and even with the weather we have like different practice options, And in night we- I have a different session. Mm. I’m in mountain I usually make fire in the evening. I usually carry a small thermos and put the hot water, you know, save hot water for the morning, the breakfast.
My tsampa, you know, I just need this hot water. So I don’t want to make fire in the morning. I don’t take lunch. in between I, choose some chocolate if I have available.
Mm. And I drink water- yeah. You’ll
[00:26:49] Olivia: sa- and you’ll have cold water
[00:26:50] Tseyang: from streams? Streams. There will be always a clean, uh, running stream water, you know? So, and sometimes, and I can drink it from the rock, you know? They just come from the rock- Mm
clean water. usually I go to I should say bed or like I j- just, uh, lean, you after that I will lie for like… Although I wanted to sleep, uh, I just, my body feel awake. And my f- mind is fresh and I just start my practice. And it’s, uh, this, is kind of routine in the mountain, And about the food, most of the time I take, tsampa because it’s, it lasts more, and also it’s healthy, and I can carry, you know?
Bit more than those rice and these things. Rice will last only for a few days if I- take. And also I cannot
[00:27:55] Olivia: carry, so. So you do bring enough tsampa for, ’cause you might go away for nine months or something. Do you bring enough tsampa for all of that time?
[00:28:03] Tseyang: Yeah, at least it should last f- uh, five months.
Mm. this time I will be going in May, June, July, August, September, October. Yeah, almost eight and a half I should say. So at least it will last five months. Mm-hmm. If I need it, then I will, walk few hours towards the nomad. There will be always nomads, uh, at least somewhere, backside of the two mountains are, so I can go there.
And I can just buy, but they are not, they won’t accept the money. I will have a good meal there. And I will come back. Sometimes I will… They, uh, it gets dark, you know, then they will, uh, um, ask me to, stay in their place for a night. Sometimes I will stay night and I will come back but I don’t stay in the one place. I keep on moving if there is someone who is disturbing, you know? And yeah, I just fill food from, up in the mountain from the nomads. And sometimes it depends on the place. Sometimes, I can get the network, you know, when I w- walk- then I can make a call, you know? then I will send nomad to get the food. At least it will take two to three days to the, they will get my food from there. My- Mm-hmm … the tsampa and these things, you know, will be sent it f- from town by my cousins, it depends on the place, you know? Okay. So it sounds like you’re basically living on tsampa, sometimes chocolate. Chocolate. Water. Water, yeah. And, I don’t like tsampa. Uh, when I was not a practitioner, I don’t like tsampa. It stuck on my throat, you know? Uh, before when I start my, uh, mountain retreat, like carrying a tsampa, that time I have no idea how to, you know, prepare a tsampa, uh, ts- but still I carry tsampa, and I know how to make and eat, but the thing is prepare. Now I ca- I, what I do is, like, it’s been, like, three years, I’m making, like, at least seven to nine grains, you know? Okay. And I put butter, yogurt, and I have to take one, this mix with the yogurt and this separate, this yogurt and this mix one- Mm … will expire soon. So I eat first this one, and later I’ve dried one. Of course, I, mixed with the butter, dry one, but I don’t put the wet things like a yogurt and this thing, you know. I do add honey too, and some almonds and this thing, I roast, and I just make it powder, and I mixed. it’s simple, but it’s so nutritious. I’m getting, supplements, so this help me to save my tsampas, you know. Yeah. So it gets more nutrition. Like
[00:31:07] Olivia: powders or, like, B12 things,
[00:31:10] Tseyang: like? B- B12 and, like… And it c- usually comes in capsule or in the tablet, you know.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s fine. Mm-hmm.
[00:31:19] Olivia: Well, one question about finding a place. I, I know you said that it’s challenging going to a new place. Yeah. And what do you look for when you look for a place to go? Like-
[00:31:30] Tseyang: And also I was about to share about this. I look for the place where there is no one nearby, And even though there is no one, sometimes this place doesn’t serve you, and the place doesn’t serve, our practice, you know? Some practice gets stuck, in some place. if this place have this kind of energy, then we should move to other, place.
We should not stay there longer, you know? That’s why I like to keep on moving, you know? If the place is, when I practice, if place is kind of like… Although there is no one, sometimes place is disturbing, even there is no one. Yeah. So at that moment, we have to know ourself, like, “Oh, it’s, uh, something is going to happen or, I’m going to waste my time here,” you know? Mm-hmm. Or it’s, “I should move.” Then just move, you know? Don’t stay in that place. Then in some place, my… Right after I practice, you know, I feel so good, you know, my practice progress, not expecting to progress this fast, you know?
this kind of place are, like, very special. In, in this kind of place, we should stay longer, you know? Mm-hmm. Longer, and I do go back in this kind of place. then that, that’s why I don’t stay nearby the people. If I need something, then I just hike to their place and just ask, especially being a practitioner, what make us special is in the normal life, when we are lay and we are not able to ask the people, like, especially stranger, Could you give me a food?” Or something like that, you know? Yeah. And, “Would you mind to give me a room for tonight?
I want to stay here, you know, whole the night here.” But when we become practitioner, these things make us proud, asking alms. And when I come back, I also hitchhike
[00:33:43] Olivia: I guess it’d be nice to conclude on the topic of devotion. Mm. And just what, what does devotion mean to you and, and why is it so powerful in practice?
[00:33:58] Tseyang: good question. There is different devotions, like influence devotions, and these are like one friend will say like, “Oh, there, there is one big high lama, you know? Oh, he’s like that, like that.” We ordinary mind followed away, and that is the influenced devotion, you know.
It’s, it’s, it’s okay for a time being to do. When we practice, devotion is not something like that. Devotions will come naturally. That’s a natural thing, not something like, putting so much effort to make devotions. that’s not devotion. When we practice, there will be a devotion.
That devotions I experienced myself, that devotions you can also get a fever, you know? Shiver. You will shiver when you had this kind of devotion You wanted to cry, but your heart will be, like, happy, you know? this devotions will think like you’re going to, like, pass out, like faint, something like that.
Yeah. I feel like this devotion is more powerful and stronger. At that moment, I had this kind of devotion. I felt more, connected to my guru and of course with the, dharma, you know? devotion is not something we can make. Devotion is a natural thing. It comes without giving you a warning.
[00:35:42] Olivia: I love that. Yeah. Devotion comes without giving warning.
[00:35:45] Tseyang: Thank you for giving me this opportunity to share my thoughts, and although I still have a long way to go, but- Mm … I hope, you know, my thoughts and my little, experience will encourage all the practitioners, whether they are male or female.
and I hope there will be, uh, more male and female practitioners all over the world, you know?
[00:36:12] Olivia: Mm. Me too. Have you seen… because you are out in the mountains, and do you see more practitioners out there- Yeah, yeah … these days than you did when you were first?
[00:36:22] Tseyang: I hope there will be, hidden practitioners.
Because I’m also not, not interested to, come in the crowd, you know? We are comfortable hiding, So that way, I guess I, I hope there also, uh, hidden practitioners, you know? But So far, I didn’t meet one. And also, under, my guru, we have, some female. they do practice. Mm. Of course, I also get encouraged from them. And there is also practitioners who, like female or male, who are working, and they take a year leave to practice. And also they do a weekend gathering for, like, practice.
They have, center or community, In Bhutan. Nowadays I can see many, interested to practice,
[00:37:16] Olivia: So wonderful. I mean, I support that vision of more hidden practitioners, and I really value how everything you shared is so grounded. About just keep practicing.
[00:37:29] Tseyang: We just have to keep on practicing until we leave. Yeah. If we keep on practicing, then result is a natural thing. Mm-hmm.